Leica SL or Hasselblad X1D

[FlashGordonPhotography]

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Hi:  

 

Hello:

 

To make certain I wasn't misleading anyone, I just did a quick test shot using the SL and my 75 2.4 M.  Shooting wide open, I get expected beautiful background bokeh and very shallow depth of field.  If I stop down to F16 and adjust my shutter speed to achieve the correct exposure, my SL screen does not go dark, and the exposure preview in the EVF is spot-on correct.  BUT, when I look in the SL's EVF, there is zero indication on how deep my depth of field is at F16.  When I look at the captured image, the increased depth of field is obvious and very noticeable, but there's no way to preview it on the SL, unless I'm missing a preview setting somewhere on the camera.  Shooting at 2.4 or 16, my exact point of focus in the viewfinder is just that; everything else in the EVF image falls off focus rapidly.  There is no depth of field effect until I look at the captured image on the LCD.

 

Simply put, the SL viewfinder/LCD is too small to be effective in viewing DOF. And even with the best EVF in the world the resolution is so low that incremental changes are not shown.

 

It's easy to forget that apparent DOF is affected by both viewing size and distance as well as aperture and subject distance. When you're viewing the image on a 3 inch LCD of course it doesn't look like a larger version on your screen. Easy to test too. Make two prints of the same shot. One  10" and one 3". See if the DOF looks the same. In situations where the difference is significant when stopped down, like macro, you'll see *some* differences. But anything beyond a portrait difference is going to be very difficult to see.

 

A larger MF viewfinder will help a bit but the X1D doesn't have one of those.

 

I'm sure everyone here has taken a shot that looked like it was stopped down perfectly in the viewfinder, only to find that there's less DOF in a print than they wanted.

 

Gordon

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[steppenw0lf]

No never!     (That is true, because I make no prints).

But I use an iPad for macro to see more details. And I think it is quite realistic - but I cannot be completely sure, because I never print. And why shouldn't I see the difference in sharpness/blur, when I use the 6x or 10x zoom ?

 

So sorry, but a larger viewfinder would not improve the situation a lot. But using other tools does (iPad or Mac (tethering), and enlargement/zoom.)

 

I think if you try it, you cannot resist to find it quite realistic. (meaning quite close to the final result)

Edited October 28, 2016 by steppenw0lf

[EoinC]

@EoinC - the M lenses are fully manual, and the half press of the M shutter brings up exposure preview and does not close the aperture ss that is closed manually with the aperture ring only. Look into the lens as you do this to confirm.

Yes, Sandokan, you are spot on. I thought about it after I wrote it, but forgot to come back and correct. What I should have written is that the half press cancels the 'auto-adjust' of the EVF that 'normalises' the exposure for regular viewing. The half press delivers wysiwyg, including DOF. If your aperture / shutter speed / ISO settings are a lower EV than 'normal', the EVF image will darken accordingly with the half press; if higher, it will lighten.

When I'm doing T/S, macro, or StopShot photography with my A7R, I use the wireless tethering to an iPad, which gives a very good rendition of exposure, focus (including magnifications), and DOF. It is a great assistance.

Edited October 29, 2016 by EoinC

[FlashGordonPhotography]

No never!     (That is true, because I make no prints).

But I use an iPad for macro to see more details. And I think it is quite realistic - but I cannot be completely sure, because I never print. And why shouldn't I see the difference in sharpness/blur, when I use the 6x or 10x zoom ?

 

So sorry, but a larger viewfinder would not improve the situation a lot. But using other tools does (iPad or Mac (tethering), and enlargement/zoom.)

 

I think if you try it, you cannot resist to find it quite realistic. (meaning quite close to the final result)

 

 

Well using an iPad is almost exactly like using a larger viewfinder..........

 

It just depends how much larger that viewfinder is.

 

Same thing happened in the good 'ol days. DOF preview nearly useless on 35mm but stooping down while shooting under the cloth of a 10x8? Sweet......

 

Gordon

[FlashGordonPhotography]

Yes, Sandokan, that's correct. What I should have written is that the half press cancels the 'auto-adjust' of the EVF that 'normalises' the exposure for regular viewing. The half press delivers wysiwyg, including DOF. If your aperture / shutter speed / ISO settings are a lower EV than 'normal', the EVF image will darken accordingly with the half press; if higher, it will lighten.

 

On the SL that's how it works in M mode. In A mode exposure preview is always on, if selected in the menus, half press or no half press.

 

Gordon

[EoinC]

Well using an iPad is almost exactly like using a larger viewfinder..........

 

It just depends how much larger that viewfinder is.

 

Same thing happened in the good 'ol days. DOF preview nearly useless on 35mm but stooping down while shooting under the cloth of a 10x8? Sweet......

 

Gordon

I concur - Viewing on an iPad I can see differences that i cannot pick up on an OVF or EVF.

[ramarren]

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I'm sorry, but I find this notion that "you can't see the DoF" in an SL's EVF ridiculous. Being able to see the DoF change as I turn the aperture ring on an adapted lens is one of the reasons I love using R lenses on the SL! Of course the DoF change is not as pronounced as it looks in the full size image rendered on my 27" display or in a large print. But to say that it is not visible at all is just absurd as far as I'm concerned. It is FAR more visible than it ever was in an SLR viewfinder because, in that use, when you have the aperture closed down enough to see the DoF deepen dramatically, it's too dark to see anything clearly. 

 

I had no problem seeing the DoF with the X1D's EVF either, way back in June when it was the first demo units on the demo circuit. 

 

(On a side note: I find it just astonishing that the X1D thread here and on another forum have both gotten 30-40 pages of posts, and raised a lot of hackles and petty bickering. What is the darn problem? The camera hasn't shipped yet in any numbers, the experience with it in the flesh is mostly from demos with demo hardware and firmware, yet people are stridently making the most absurd statements about it, both pro and con! Unbelievable that any new camera can cause so much heated debate and aggression. It's a camera, that's all, people. 

 

Personally, I'd love one but it's not a replacement for my SL or M-D; it is its own thing. Whether I can afford one once they're available is a big question mark, but I'd love a larger sensor'ed camera with a short lens, as I've said before. Just the glimpse I got of the camera and 45, 90 mm lenses back in June was enough to convince me of its quality and design.)

[FlashGordonPhotography]

Is this petty bickering? Seems cordial and polite to me. I'd buy any of this bunch a beer and have exactly the same discussion down at the pub. We make our case and enjoy the rebuttal forward and back. I'd call it a friendly debate rather than bickering. Since no ones actually got a camera yet I think we're 10 pages past speculation and now the topic is evolving naturally. I can't speak for anyone else, but a forum of people who agree with everything I say would be very dull indeed. Difference of opinion and well though out and well presented opinion is what I like about this forum.

 

I apologise if I implied you can't see the DoF at all. All I'm saying is that it's not as easy to judge as it is on a larger device and that it can appear to be different depending on the viewing size and distance. Judging a half of full stop difference is quite difficult in the EVF. Bigger changes can be more obvious AND photographers are go at adapting the information and extrapolating it to a larger print.

 

The iPad was a good comparison I hadn't actually thought of and it's something I might actually consider using in the future as it could on occasion, be a handy tool to have. I've been using my phone with the app and would have though using an iPad a silly thing to have to carry around. Now I see that differently.

 

Gordon

[Jeff S]

Bracket if not sure.

 

View prints.

 

Simple.

 

Jeff

[lct]

Hard to believe that you cannot see DoF changes in your EVFs folks. Image magnification helps a lot if needed.

[EoinC]

Hard to believe that you cannot see DoF changes in your EVFs folks. Image magnification helps a lot if needed.

Using a T/S lens, there is a significant difference between viewing on an EVF (admittedly I'm not familiar with the excellent EVF of the SL) and viewing on an iPad, at least for my old eyes, including when using selective magnification.

[EoinC]

The iPad remote is also useful for setting up waterdrop shots (non-leica (A7R w/ ZE 135 Apo), so Mod's can remove at will)...

a018 by Eoin Christie, on Flickr

 

a001 by Eoin Christie, on Flickr

 

b002 by Eoin Christie, on Flickr

[Sandokan]

Lovely photos!

[satijntje]

Some amazing pics from the X1D:

 

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/khunk/albums/72157674666189306

 

 

Take a look at those skin tones.

 

John

[ramarren]

Some amazing pics from the X1D:

 

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/khunk/albums/72157674666189306

 

 

Take a look at those skin tones.

 

There are some nice pics there, but the models all look like their skin has been airbrushed smooth, it's like they're made of plastic. ??? 

I'm sure it's a style thing; I find that rather unappealing. 

[satijntje]

There are some nice pics there, but the models all look like their skin has been airbrushed smooth, it's like they're made of plastic. ??? 

I'm sure it's a style thing; I find that rather unappealing. 

 

 

I had the occasion to do some testshooting in the back area of the Hasselblad stand at the Photokina.

My images confirm the outstanding color rendering of skins, and we were not airbrushed at all :-)

John

[ramarren]

I had the occasion to do some testshooting in the back area of the Hasselblad stand at the Photokina.

My images confirm the outstanding color rendering of skins, and we were not airbrushed at all :-)

John

 

 

Are those your pictures then? The flickr account is "Kaisen Chen"...?? 

[Guest NEIL-D-WILLIAMS]

Look pretty cool to me............

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[Peter H]

There are some nice pics there, but the models all look like their skin has been airbrushed smooth, it's like they're made of plastic. ??? 

I'm sure it's a style thing; I find that rather unappealing. 

 

 

 

I thought that too. The photos I took with the X1D  (not these!) showed none of the "airbrushing" effects that these show. I am certain they must either have been added in PP or the lighting was poorly set up.

 

(Edit: probably not the lighting because it appears in different locations, unless the photographer has a particular taste for this style.)

 

I think you can see the wonderful potential in these photos though.

Edited November 1, 2016 by Peter H

[ramarren]

Yes, I've seen other photos from this sensor (both from X1D and CFV-50c) that show it is a wonderful sensor with excellent capabilities. "In these photo" however, I find the skin as rendered rather off-putting.