Leica SL or Hasselblad X1D

[FlashGordonPhotography]

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We'll see, however, if the X1D eventually incorporates an electronic shutter in firmware.

 

Jeff

 

The CEO of Hasselblad stated that the camera would not have a global shutter and that there were no plans to include one at this stage. I think it may happen eventually, because I think after an initial surge that without availability of lenses sales of the body will stall. I don't think too many will want to buy a "cheap" camera and then put the most expensive Hasselblad lenses on it via an adaptor. Sales would be higher if those people could adapt some older but still good manual focus glass until the lens range fleshes out. This is the gamble both Sony and Leica have taken and for Sony at least it has worked out as people move to the new GM lenses.

 

So I think after maybe 6 months we'll see an announcement of a firmware update. The only other way to be successful will be if a comprehensive roadmap is released and it's pretty aggressive.

 

Gordon 

[ramarren]

Same here, I don't use adapted lenses.  When I commit to a camera, it's a system that I'm buying into, including the lens line.  Fortunately, besides not being an adapter, I'm typically not an early adopter, which takes away some of the frustration that comes from manufacturers not releasing road maps for future lenses (e.g., Leica).

 

Ming Thein has, however, raised the issue of a potential FW update in the X1D.

 

 

I'm not entirely sure what Ming Thein's opinion has to do with this discussion.

 

I buy equipment based on what it will do when I receive it. What I wanted the Leica SL for was its compatibility with the R lenses I had, which it turned out Leica did an excellent job of. I added the SL24-90 to my order after I first placed it thinking it would be nice to have one fully capable, dedicated lens. And indeed it is. So I have no frustration about the SL at all, and have no particular angst about that lenses might someday be available for it either. For me, the SL has worked out very well just as is. 

 

And as I said long ago, the X1D is very interesting to me, particularly if they offer a ~22 mm lens for it. I'll order when I see that what I want is available, and when I can pay for it. 

[Jeff S]

Ming Thein never offered an opinion or prediction.  I merely repeated his observation that the only means for other adapted lenses is IF Hasselblad offers an electronic shutter in FW.  He made the observation in the comments section following his review, in which he deliberately focused on what the camera currently offers, not what it might offer.

 

I buy into a system based on my own needs and tests.....and with reasonable assurance that the system has no major glitches and that the manufacturer is committed to a lens line that will likely support my needs.  If not for that, I'd probably already own an S.  And given the S experience, I'm happy to let the dust settle on the SL....so far, so good...still need to see several native weather sealed primes.

 

To each his/her own.

 

Jeff

[sillbeers15]

And as I said long ago, the X1D is very interesting to me, particularly if they offer a ~22 mm lens for it. I'll order when I see that what I want is available, and when I can pay for it. 

 

Is there an existing manual focus Hasselbald wide angle 38mm lens that is available in the market today that can fit the X1D?

[ramarren]

Is there an existing manual focus Hasselbald wide angle 38mm lens that is available in the market today that can fit the X1D?

 

 

The only existing manual focus Hasselblad 38mm lens is the Zeiss Biogon 38mm built into the V system SWC models; it's not interchangeable. There are HC and HCD 24, 28, and 35 Hasselblad AF series lenses for which you'd need an adapter (I don't know what the planned adapter compatibility is, specifically). 

 

Why did you ask about 38mm specifically?

Edited September 5, 2016 by ramarren

[scott kirkpatrick]

The only existing manual focus Hasselblad 38mm lens is the Zeiss Biogon 38mm built into the V system SWC models; it's not interchangeable. There are HC and HCD 24, 28, and 35 Hasselblad AF series lenses for which you'd need an adapter (I don't know what the planned adapter compatibility is, specifically). 

 

The Biogon 38 is a lovely symmetric wideangle lens with a shutter built-in, and gives nice digital output when the SWC is coupled with a digital back in the 30-40 MPx range.  Unfortunately, those are smaller than the 6x6 cm that the lens could cover with film, and I am told (by the folks at Bear Photo, Palo Alto) that the SWC doesn't have the precision or resolving power to be pushed to the next level of digital resolution or size.  

 

scott

[ramarren]

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The Biogon 38 is a lovely symmetric wideangle lens with a shutter built-in, and gives nice digital output when the SWC is coupled with a digital back in the 30-40 MPx range.  Unfortunately, those are smaller than the 6x6 cm that the lens could cover with film, and I am told (by the folks at Bear Photo, Palo Alto) that the SWC doesn't have the precision or resolving power to be pushed to the next level of digital resolution or size.  

 

 

I've seen some very nice work done with the SWC fitted with a CFV-50c and cropped to square format (37Mpixels). I don't know why they'd say it doesn't have the resolving power or precision ... the Biogon 38 nets about 200LP/MM right to the edges of the 56x56 format, and the CFV-50c has Live View so focusing precision should be as good as anything. 

[scott kirkpatrick]

I've seen some very nice work done with the SWC fitted with a CFV-50c and cropped to square format (37Mpixels). I don't know why they'd say it doesn't have the resolving power or precision ... the Biogon 38 nets about 200LP/MM right to the edges of the 56x56 format, and the CFV-50c has Live View so focusing precision should be as good as anything. 

The CFV-50C is only 44 x 33 mm, or 33x33 if shot in a square format.  My P45+ is 49 x 37 mm, still a lot smaller than "6x6" in dimensions. It's a CCD unit, without LiveView.  So some of the "SuperWide" character is lost.  I was asking if I should fantasize putting the Sony 55x40 mm 100 MPx sensor on my film Hasselblad.  Those pixels are half the area of mine, with about 4+ micron spacing, so even 200 lines per mm is not quite keeping up, and the alignment requirements are more severe.

 

Nonetheless (like a bumblebee), the old 500C/M  and SWC Hasselblads with a more modern back capture awesome detail, and setting them up on a tripod for a group portrait adds a nice bit of solemnity to the occasion, which can help.

 

scott 

Edited September 5, 2016 by scott kirkpatrick

[ramarren]

The CFV-50C is only 44 x 33 mm, or 33x33 if shot in a square format.  My P45+ is 49 x 37 mm, still a lot smaller than "6x6" in dimensions. It's a CCD unit, without LiveView.  So some of the "SuperWide" character is lost.  I was asking if I should fantasize putting the Sony 55x40 mm 100 MPx sensor on my film Hasselblad.  Those pixels are half the area of mine, with about 4+ micron spacing, so even 200 lines per mm is not quite keeping up, and the alignment requirements are more severe.

 

Nonetheless (like a bumblebee), the old 500C/M  and SWC Hasselblads with a more modern back capture awesome detail, and setting them up on a tripod for a group portrait adds a nice bit of solemnity to the occasion, which can help.

 

 

LOL! It would have been clearer if you'd mentioned what you were comparing against. I was thinking the X1D and SWC/CFV-50c which have about double the spacing of the 100 Mpixel sensor you're talking about.   

 

And besides ... even if the lens isn't 'keeping up', a higher density sensor isn't going to make the picture look worse with a given lens, it's just not going to get better beyond a certain point and you're going to see lens defects more easily at micro-level inspection. I can't really see such issues affecting the rendering of people, who move about all the time no matter what you do due to breathing and normal reflex musculature. 

 

The debate for me isn't between the X1D and the SL ... they're similar types of cameras in form factor and the SL wins for what I'm shooting normally due to its responsiveness and easy adaptability for my existing Leica lens kit. The X1D in this context, if a 20-22mm lens appears, is an ultra-wide complementary camera the same way my SWC is a complement to the Hasselblad 500CM or 35mm film camera system. The debate is whether to put that amount of money into the X1D—essentially an entirely new system—or to buy the CFV-50c to use with my existing Hasselblad bodies (SWC, CM) and lenses (38, 50, 80, 120, 150). 

 

I would get a lot more use out of the 500CM and SWC if I had a digital back for them, but I might actually use the X1D and a 22mm lens more due to its handiness. 

 

That said, either way is a hefty chunk of money and I have no real need at the moment to spend it. So it's fun to think about it and figure what might be best, but I'm in no way going to put any money on those thoughts until the need surfaces. 

[sillbeers15]

Why did you ask about 38mm specifically?

Thanks ramarren. I was searching for wide non AF Hasselblad lenses and I do not find much wider than 38mm.

The currently announced X1D wide is 45mm, not much of a wide for landscape photography. I like the Alpha Phase One concept for landscape dedicated shots but find the price too high as a camera just for hobby of landscape shots. The prices for SL & X1D seem to be at the sweet spot for many to afford.

[ramarren]

Thanks ramarren. I was searching for wide non AF Hasselblad lenses and I do not find much wider than 38mm.

The currently announced X1D wide is 45mm, not much of a wide for landscape photography. I like the Alpha Phase One concept for landscape dedicated shots but find the price too high as a camera just for hobby of landscape shots. The prices for SL & X1D seem to be at the sweet spot for many to afford.

 

 

Lots of rumor has it that the next lens out for the X1D will be a 30mm. 30mm on the X1D format nets the equivalent of about a 23mm lens on 35FF format. That's getting into the right ballpark, for me, but what I really want is down into the 20-23 mm range (nominally 16 to 18 mm on 35FF format equivalent). 

 

(I don't do much landscape photography, but if you're looking for ultrawide lenses that work well for the task, the SL is a better pick at the moment. Vieri Bottazini has been reviewing the Voigtländer 15/4.5 III, the Tri-Elmar-M 16-18-21mm is wonderful, the Super-Elmar-R 15mm, the Super-Elmarit-R 15mm is even better, etc etc. Lots of choices to be had.)

[Jeff S]

Lots of rumor has it that the next lens out for the X1D will be a 30mm. 

Not a rumor....an exact report by the CEO, promised for Photokina.  And announced at the demo I attended in June.

 

Jeff

Edited September 6, 2016 by Jeff S

[EoinC]

The only existing manual focus Hasselblad 38mm lens is the Zeiss Biogon 38mm built into the V system SWC models; it's not interchangeable. There are HC and HCD 24, 28, and 35 Hasselblad AF series lenses for which you'd need an adapter (I don't know what the planned adapter compatibility is, specifically). 

 

Why did you ask about 38mm specifically?

...and there is the V series 40mm manual focus.

[ramarren]

...and there is the V series 40mm manual focus.

 

 

Yes, the Distagon 40mm T*. My buddy down in Lancaster has one of them. A lovely lens, if something of a monster compared to the Distagon 50mm or Biogon 38mm. 

[Vieri]

...

 

(I don't do much landscape photography, but if you're looking for ultrawide lenses that work well for the task, the SL is a better pick at the moment. Vieri Bottazini has been reviewing the Voigtländer 15/4.5 III, the Tri-Elmar-M 16-18-21mm is wonderful, the Super-Elmar-R 15mm, the Super-Elmarit-R 15mm is even better, etc etc. Lots of choices to be had.)

 

Great list Godfrey, and thank you for mentioning my reviews - might I add the new Voigtlander 10mm, which looks amazing for such a WA and which I also reviewed here:

 

https://vieribottazzini.com/2016/08/voigtlander-heliar-hyper-wide-10mm-f5-6-review.html

 

as well as the Voigtlander 12mm, which is on its third iteration as is the 15mm and which I plan to review as soon as it's out. I am using version I (LTM) since it allows me to use filters with it without any problems, and while a bit soft in the corners is a very good lens and incredibly small. Version II is said to have the same optical formula in M mount (and with a non-practical unremovable lens hood), and supposedly v. III is great and has no colour casts etc (like the new 15mm).

 

As you said, there is a great number of great lenses if you want to go real wide with the SL - while waiting for a native SL ultra-WA, that is

 

Best,

 

Vieri

[Georges]

There is also the CF 30mm fisheye lens, which is now digitally corrected in Phocus. It is a manual V lens. 

[helged]

and/or Fuji GFX...

[Jeff S]

Hasselblad already offers special edition X1D with strap, lens, custom box and extended warranty...  http://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2016/9/19/12958444/hasselblad-x1d-4116-special-edition-v1d-concept-photokina

 

I guess they haven't quite learned from Leica to establish an even higher premium price.

 

Jeff

[ynp]

Hasselblad already offers special edition X1D with strap, lens, custom box and extended warranty... http://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2016/9/19/12958444/hasselblad-x1d-4116-special-edition-v1d-concept-photokina

 

I guess they haven't quite learned from Leica to establish an even higher premium price.

 

Jeff

I am patiently waiting for a Titanium Porsche Edition with a Cordovan holster. A matching brass lens is a must.

Black is too boring, too Fuji-like.

 

 

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Hallo,

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[Guest]

Extended warranty might be worth putting up with the 4116 label ... new camera and all.

 

Bob