3.5cm f3.5 Summaron M-mount confusion.

[pippy]

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Please excuse what might seem to be obvious points but I'm not an historian...

 

I have a 35mm f3.5 Summaron in M-mount fitting without 'spectacles'. I've had it somewhere around 35 years but it has only recently piqued my curiosity in terms of it's date of manufacture.

 

From what I've read so far - both on-line and in print - the serial number, 1 150 659, dates - according to almost all published lists & sites - to 1954 (1 024 000 to 1 236 000 seems to be the commonly accepted run for '54) yet most sites state the M-mount 3.5cm f3.5 as being introduced in 1956.

 

Is this '54 date correct?

I ask because the M3 seems to have been introduced in 1954. Was there a production run of M-mount 3.5cm f3.5s made in 1954 without specs to coincide with the introduction of the M3?

 

The only on-line site I've come across which lists a Summaron in M-mount with a similar '54 serial number ("1 150 xxx noted") is the non-Leica specific 'Antique and Classic Cameras' who, confusingly, describe it as being "35mm Summaron f3.5 M2" even though the M2 wasn't introduced until '57.

 

One other 3.5cm f3.5 I found with serial 1 148 420 is listed as being a prototype.

 

Hope this thread isn't too stupid or naiive but I'm curious...

 

Thanks in advance for any answers and info!

 

Pip.

Edited April 7, 2016 by pippy

[luigi bertolotti]

Nothing stupid in your question... the story of Summaron 35 3,5 is rather complex... anyway, your lens is "regular", in the sense that the first Summarons, introduced together with the M3, had no spectacles and needed an external viewfinder (typically, the excellent SBLOO) : the "goggled" version arrived later on, and later again there was a version made for M2 : no spectacles but activates the 35mm frame on M2 (and later models), which your lens does not. The first ungoggled Summaron 35, though not so long-lived, had anyway some little variations in mechanical and finishing details... I'd bet that yours is slightly differetn from mine, that is just a bit younger (1.180.546) : pictures of your item are welcome...

 

I don't know if is correct to define item 1148420 as a "prototype"... Summaron design had existed in screw Mount for years... probably it ought be better to define it as a "pre series"... real prototypes usually had no or odd serial numbers like 00000xx... btw, Summaron 35 3,5 BM 1148775 was auctioned years ago (WestLicht, 2007) not advertised as a prototype, at a rather normal price ,and also 1148271 (Rahn) was simply stated as "very early".

Edited April 7, 2016 by luigi bertolotti

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[willeica]

I have an M mount 35mm f3.5 Summaron (no goggles) with SN 1288031 from 1955. It does not bring up 35mm framelines on cameras which have them such as the M2 or M4; so an SBLOO or similar separate viewfinder is required. It is a good lens, as was the earlier screwmount 35mm f3.5 Summaron, which I have used on all types of cameras, even an M9, because of its compact profile. . The screwmount lens only takes clamp-on filters but my M mount lens will take screw in filters. Some of the literature states that from SN 1423141 a lens for E-39 screw in filters was introduced, but this would seem to refer to the introduction in late 1956 of a version which brought up the 35mm framelines for the upcoming M2. I believe that there were some variations in the early 35mm Summmaron M Mount, as Luigi says.

 

William

[luigi bertolotti]

... The screwmount lens only takes clamp-on filters but my M mount lens will take screw in filters. Some of the literature states that from SN 1423141 a lens for E-39 screw in filters was introduced.... 

William

Indeed, the screw Mount version was made also with E39 filter... it's quite similar to the ungoggled BM version : not difficult to find... for example http://www.leicashop.com/vintage_de/leica/leica-screw-mount-lenses/summaron-e39-3-5-35mm/leica-summaron-3-5-3-5cm-sku25813-7.html

[pippy]

Thank you both very much, Luigi and William.

What you write explains matters well and conforms to my experiences as regards viewfinder inaction!

 

I recently had the lens CLA'd (there had been some fogging) and was stunned by it's subsequent performance in terms of sharpness, clarity and contrast. Wonderful lens. I originally bought it back in 1980 with my M2 and now use it very happily on my M9-P.

 

Just to clarify one point; the 'prototype' serial number mentioned in my earlier post was in reference to one specific lens & goggle set and not as part of a run. Here is the relevant link;

http://collectiblend.com/Lenses/Leitz/35mm-f3.5-Summaron-%28BM,-prototype%29.html

 

I will post a pic of my own example when time allows!

 

Thanks again to you both.

 

Philip.

Edited April 7, 2016 by pippy

[willeica]

Indeed, the screw Mount version was made also with E39 filter... it's quite similar to the ungoggled BM version : not difficult to find... for example http://www.leicashop.com/vintage_de/leica/leica-screw-mount-lenses/summaron-e39-3-5-35mm/leica-summaron-3-5-3-5cm-sku25813-7.html

 

My screwmount Summaron is an earlier version from 1953 with a rotating front element and it takes A-36 clamp on filters. I have seen the screwmount version which is like my M mount lens, but I don't have one. Another one for my wants list!

 

William

[luigi bertolotti]

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... I have seen the screwmount version which is like my M mount lens, but I don't have one. Another one for my wants list!

 

William

+1...

[pippy]

...I'd bet that yours is slightly differetn from mine, that is just a bit younger (1.180.546) : pictures of your item are welcome... ...

Well Luigi, FWIW, here are a couple of quick snaps.

Sorry about the poor quality and nil depth-of-field but you can probably get the idea.

 

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If you want better snaps of any detail in particular please let me know and I'll do it properly!

 

Pip.

[jc_braconi]

My M also is in feet 

and the LTM E39
 

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[pippy]

Thanks for posting those images, JC. They make for interesting viewing as a comparison.

 

Interesting to see yours has a smooth section forwards of the distance scale and the red hemispherical alignment dot whereas mine has a ridged section and paint-filled alignment marker.

 

Thanks again.

 

Pip.

[luigi bertolotti]

Thanks for posting those images, JC. They make for interesting viewing as a comparison.

 

Interesting to see yours has a smooth section forwards of the distance scale and the red hemispherical alignment dot whereas mine has a ridged section and paint-filled alignment marker.

 

Thanks again.

 

Pip.

... and, infact, it's the M2 version ... note also the different orientation of part of the front writings

[luigi bertolotti]

Well Luigi, FWIW, here are a couple of quick snaps.

Sorry about the poor quality and nil depth-of-field but you can probably get the idea.

 

L1434364 v2 lo-res.jpg

 

L1434368 v2 lo-res.jpg

 

L1434372 lo-res.jpg

 

If you want better snaps of any detail in particular please let me know and I'll do it properly!

 

Pip.

Thank you, pippy.... just a question... but not about the Summaron : where has gone the Model + s/n engraving on the top of your M2 ?

[pippy]

...where has gone the Model + s/n engraving on the top of your M2 ?

Ha!

 

The M2 led a very hard life under my stewardship, I'm sorry (and slightly emabarrased) to say.

 

Last year, quite by chance, I came across a dealership in London (Red Dot Cameras) which had a NOS M2 top-plate in stock. I bought it and replaced the original top-plate (which I've kept). It was/is my intention to restore the serial number on to the new plate but it's not exactly high up on my 'Things To Do' list at the moment.

 

At the same time I sourced some new Vulcanite to replace the destroyed original covering and now need to clean up the base-plate to finish the cosmetic part of the job on the body.

 

Here are snaps showing 'before' and 'after';

 

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As can be seen the 50mm collapsible Elmar has lost it's infinity-lock button. I'm trying to track one of these down, too.

 

Pip.

[spydrxx]

Nice job. I think besides the button you will need a small spring.

[pippy]

Thank you, spydrxx.

 

Yes; the spring and also, of course, the rearmost part on to which the infinity lock button screws.

The really annoying thing is that when the assembly unscrewed and fell apart I picked up the three pieces and put them in a 'safe place' until I could get home and reconstruct the lock properly but it didn't get done instantly and three house moves in a short timeframe later the 'safe place' was ancient - and forgotten - history.

Ho-Hum.

 

I did speak to the mechanic who carried-out the CLA of the Summaron about the availability of 'spares' but it seems that these buttons are not all the same across the range and to source the correct pieces isn't as straightforward as I first thought.

 

However, as with the top-plate engraving, the lock button is not high on my 'things to do' list as I have a 50mm Summicron IV which carries out 'standard lens' duties admirably.

 

Pip.

[pippy]

 

... and, in fact, it's the M2 version ... note also the different orientation of part of the front writings

I missed that the first time round, Luigi!

 

Very Curious!

 

Pip.

[Chubkins]

Interesting thread here. I recently purchased the M Mount early version that needs the filing for the 35 frame lines. This thread helped confirm some of my beliefs about it. Once in hand I'll post it and see if it actually has been filed or not. 

[pippy]

Interesting thread here. I recently purchased the M Mount early version that needs the filing for the 35 frame lines. This thread helped confirm some of my beliefs about it. Once in hand I'll post it and see if it actually has been filed or not. 

 

Looking forward to seeing the pictures!

There is some more info and pictures about the 3.5cm f3.5 which you might find to be of interest in this thread, Chubkins;

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/80433-a-little-26/

 

Pip.

Edited May 27, 2016 by pippy

[Antonio Madureira]

... and later again there was a version made for M2 : no spectacles but activates the 35mm frame on M2 (and later models), which your lens does not.... 

 

I have an M mount 35mm f3.5 Summaron (no goggles) with SN 1288031 from 1955. It does not bring up 35mm framelines on cameras which have them such as the M2 or M4;... 

William

 

Good morning everybody!

With my Summaron 3,5 snº 1177296 from1954, with no red hemispherical dot, but paint-filled alignment marker, I never had  problems with viewfinder frames, because in all my cameras, 3 M2, 2 M4, 2 M5, M4-2, two M4-P and 5 M6, (please don´t tell my wife) I can see that the frame selector position, without lens inserted, shows allways 35 frame, so, as my 3,5 lens do not activate said selector, 35 frame is allwais present.

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[luigi bertolotti]

Hum... fact is that your Summaron OUGHT to activate the 50mm frame on your cameras (my 1180546 - 1954, does) : if your item does not, to say keeps visible, for example, the 35mm fram of a M2, it has been probably modified to do so... it is an easy small operation, a slight filing of a bayonet's lug... many Summaron were modified like this, when one changed his body and whished to keep a good lens of his.