Probable fraud alert

[scott kirkpatrick]

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I recently won an EBay auction for a clean looking APO Summicron M 50 for an attractive price (below $5000).  The listing showed the lens, its original box, the silk-lined jewel case that the lens comes in, its lens case, and caps.  But the seller either didn't really have the lens, or just wanted my money without having to deliver a lens.  I'm getting my money back, but will describe the warning signs for the benefit of the next person to see it.  The first sign of a problem was that after the auction closed, the seller's agent ("the man in the middle") explained that his "partner in Sydney, Australia" couldn't ship the lens until the money cleared and reached him.  But EBay has rules to escrow the funds to prevent this exposure.  So My payment was refunded, and I was presented with a Paypal invoice to pay instead ("for quicker payment"), which had the effect of moving the transaction out of EBay's scrutiny.  In the mean time, the seller had generated several "purchase has been shipped" forms, each of which said that there was no shipping company and no tracking data.  That didn't fool PayPal, I guess, because the second transaction was blocked and my funds refunded again.  At this point, the seller gave up, claiming that his "partner" was no longer responding to his emails.  If anyone sees this package being offered again on EBay, please let me know and I will report it.  The pictures could also have been stolen from some earlier sale.  Does anyone recognize this?

 

scott

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[jaapv]

So you did not  lose any money? Good

[Peter Kilmister]

Scott, A while back I spotted a 'buy it now' for an M9 and a 50 Nocti as a package for a really good price. I paid via PayPal. Nothing ever turned up.

Lots of nonsense messages from the seller. I gave him one last chance. Nothing arrived. Ebay were useless. I reported to PayPal who refunded me in full.

 

About 18 months ago I won an auction for a 50 Nocti. Similar story. Again fully refunded by PayPal.

In this case PayPal involved the police. To be fair to the 'seller' he owned up to them and he had to pay PayPal's costs.

I know that because I received an apology from the 'seller'.

[earleygallery]

Clear warning signs are whenever someone claims to be acting for someone else, or if you get any kind of 'invoice' outside of ebay/paypal. You shouldn't have sent anything.

 

And, as the saying goes, if a deal seems too good to be true...........

 

At least you didn't get burnt.

[Hayek]

After several less-than-stellar experiences on eBay, I avoid it for things like camera kit. It just isn't worth the hassle and would rather pay a small premium to a dealer I can speak to who will stand behind the item bought.

[scott kirkpatrick]

I've had pretty good luck on EBay, but this one smelled funny from the first.  So I checked at each step to ensure that I had coverage from PayPal if something went wrong. I also put my suspicions on record with both EBay and PayPal.  Separating PayPal from EBay makes this harder.  The corporate split which leaves all the liabilities on one side of the fence is increasingly common, but it is never presented that way.

 

This "my partner" stuff is straight out of the Spanish Prisoner playbook.

 

scott

[Stealth3kpl]

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After several less-than-stellar experiences on eBay, I avoid it for things like camera kit. It just isn't worth the hassle and would rather pay a small premium to a dealer I can speak to who will stand behind the item bought.

 

Some people are getting some superb lenses at good prices (as I sell off my collection  )

Pete

[@McLeica]

Didn't you all check the feedback for these Shysters?

 

What did it say or were they all low value transactions?

[Peter Kilmister]

In both of my cases there was 100% positive feedback.

[MT0227]

As I tell my kids; if something looks too good to be true, it probably is

[Schrödinger's cat]

I have, after a fair amount of experience, decided that selling camera equipment on eBay may not be the hot setup for me.  Not necessarily due to dead beat dealers and buyers, although I've had a couple, but the enormous fees for listing, final value fee, and PayPal transaction fees.

 

While I am required to take a hit on a lower selling cost, I have decided that for me, selling to a company like KEH results in less annoyance.

 

Buying doesn't bother me so much, as eBay is markedly biased toward the buyer.  You are almost always be able to get your cost refunded should there be the slightest hint of seller malfeasance. 

[Hayek]

I've been selling my stuff through Popflash in Los Angeles, on consignment. 13% fee off the sale price if it goes in the first 2 weeks. All things considered, reasonable.

[new2leica]

The Feedback rating is for all transactions both Buying and Selling. Check the Feedback Profile and open the 'Feedback as a Seller' tab. If it's empty then that 100% rating is from items the seller has been buying. 

 

A little research pays off sometimes: 

 

- Look at what types of items the seller has listed prior and has listed currently. If there lots of non-camera related stuff and then suddenly a 'pristine' Leica product that, to me, is worrisome.  

 

- If a picture shows an item's serial number I'll google images on it. Has it been offered elsewhere?  If yes, at what price? Were there more detailed pictures then that the seller isn't showing?  Are the descriptions close?

 

- Check Sold and Completed listings of the same product to see if the seller is re-using another seller's pictures.

[easy_action]

I've noticed quite regular dodgy looking auctions for Leica gear on ebay UK recently.

 

The warning signs seem to be:

 

1. Suspiciously low buy-it-now price for high value items e.g. recently an M9p and 35mm Summilux FLE being sold together for £2500

2. Buyer has all positive feedback, but a low number - around 25 or 30

3. Where is it possible to see from the feedback what they have bought recently, they are almost always low value items and nothing to do with photography

4. They never seem to be selling anything else at the same time

5. No sales with recent feedback so that you can check what they have sold previously

 

Three or four of the above and alarm bells start ringing.

 

 

[spydrxx]

I've had excellent luck both buying and selling on Ebay for over 10 years. Only bad transaction was on a Noctilux years ago which turned out to be part of an FBI sting, and I got my money back immediately. As a seller, once I had a tele-elmarit, which the buyer claimed wasn't working as described when he received it. I offered a full refund immediately, but he decided to absorb the cost of having a repairperson make the minor adjustment, as the price of the lens was quite favorable to him. Like others said...due diligence in all things.

[LeicaR10]

The Ebay system definitely has its share of fraud and scammers selling Leica M, S and SL cameras and lenses.  Things to check before "Buying it Now" or "Bidding" is to check to see the "Seller" history.  Often frauds take over other eBay accounts and if you look at the history of sales...it the "Seller" doesn't have a history of selling M cameras, lenses or anything remotely photographic...its most likely a fraud listing.  The other thing is there is "No Contact" method with the "Seller" via email etc., or Seller location is not listed.  For S and M equipment like Noctilux and 50 APO lenses etc, if you can query the Seller ask them why they don't sell the lens back to a Leica dealer.  The answer in real life would be a Leica dealer often would give you 20% off the retail price if the lens in in good/excellent shape.  They are paid in cash...hence no hassle with Ebay commissions, shipping etc. Also, you should ask the Seller to put the funds in Ebay escrow pending the lens arriving and your inspection. If the Seller won't do that...its a scam.  You will see they have the lens listed at $2-3K less than sales price in a Leica store etc, these could be stolen goods too and indicators of a fraud/scam going back to selling the lens/camera directly back to the store and make more money.  Don't get me wrong, I have bought good Leica and other camera gear off eBay in the past...but if you don't do your due diligence before you press the button to buy...then you have a high risk of fraud.  Last, if its too good a price or "deal"...its most likely a scam.  Last...Remember...Trust, but Verify before you buy on eBay.

[250swb]

In both of my cases there was 100% positive feedback.

As you've found 100% feedback isn't enough. It may be garnered from buying or selling low value items just to get a feedback record. Looking at feedback buyers should see if the seller is buying and selling photographic equipment (a good sign), be suspicious if there are a lot of 'private' sales where buyers aren't identified (a bad sign). Also be suspicious in sales if sellers use 'minty' to describe a lens that upon inspection of the photo clearly isn't mint because they are using the jargon without really knowing what it means.

 

But PayPal and Ebay are generally speaking very good at reimbursing buyers who have been ripped off so I don't think fear should put anybody off buying goods after careful checking. My pal recently bought a classic Colnago bicycle from Italy and on arrival it was clear it was a fake, PayPal accepted this after some further research to explain the problem, gave him his money back and said keep the bike. Two of my best Leica's have been bought from Ebay without any great expectations and they've both been in far better condition than the seller said, so they were over-egging the bad points, but I had suspected this may have put some people off bidding. My IIIf even arrived with a note to say he forgot to mention it had just been serviced by Malcolm Taylor (along with the receipt) and hoped I would still give good feedback!

[taosantamonica]

I've been selling my stuff through Popflash in Los Angeles, on consignment. 13% fee off the sale price if it goes in the first 2 weeks. All things considered, reasonable.

i sold most of my nikon/zeiss zf lenses through them when i moved to leica....i got excellent communications, selling prices and quick sales and payment with no need to deal with buyers 

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[Stealth3kpl]

Easy action - I saw that M9P and Summilux for Buy it Now of £2500. It went really quickly and I did wonder if it was a scam as I was interested at this price BUT it was just too good to be true.

 

The buyer stated that the camera and lens had been to Solms for adjustment and had the invoice to "prove it". It just didn't feel right and I stayed clear.

 

I hope it was a scam because if it wasn't then I missed out on fantastic deal.

 

I saw that the day after it was sold.

i had an experience where the description was so poor it wasn't clear that the lens was included. People bid assuming it wasn't, and I won being able to flip the lens and keep the M9 for half the price of it's value at that time. Good things can happen.

pete

[earleygallery]

I've bought a number of cameras and lenses through ebay and generally it's been great.

 

There have been a couple of items which weren't quite as described and a one lens which had fungus but the seller agreed to a refund without the need to involve ebay.

 

I 'manage my expectations' in terms of condition - most people seem to have much lower standards than myself, so if something is 'nearly mint', if I bid I do so on the basis that I'm expecting a 'good' item by my standards. This tends to work out OK for me.

 

My most recent purchase was a Canon zoom lens, one that typically sells for £100-£150 which I got for £46, and it's what I'd call exc++ condition. The seller posted two very poor photos of the item but said it was in good condition and hardly used. He had fairly low but positive feedback and had been using ebay for a few years. His other items had similar photos/descriptions so I just figured he wasn't too savvy on how to present stuff for sale.

 

For a very expensive item I'd try to collect in person, or at least ask if I can collect, as that's another way to sniff out a scammer - they won't agree for whatever reason (working away, about to go on holiday etc).

 

I've found ebay and paypal very helpful when there has been a problem - just stick rigidly to their procedures and it works. It's when people start trying to short cut things or negotiating outside of the system with the seller that things go wrong.