Summar 5cm variations

[willeica]

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6 hours ago, eastwestphoto said:

Finding any Summar 5cm/2  in the #167xxx is darn hard! I been trying for years. The prices are always very high! I am looking for the unconverted Iris with the multi-blades that are NOT hexagon shaped. The photo below is a from this website the lens on the left is the German Summar and the one on the right is the Russian WW11 copy. Note the Iris difference. Its said that early Rigid Summar had a Multi-bladed circular Iris? while authors of Books concentrate on serial numbers and design variations, they often DONT think about the Iris blades and the effect on the Photo for the out of focus Bokeh. I do;  so I wonder if any has seen a low serial # summar with circular blades that is NOT the Russian fake copy? Regards, Don

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I think that we discussed this issue before. Photographers in the 1930s did not have the same fixation with bokeh as photographers today may have. I doubt if the term 'bokeh' even existed then. My rigid lens SN 186431 from the second batch has round blades but the bokeh is not any smoother than that of later collapsible lenses with hexagonal lenses as these two posts from earlier in this thread show.

 

I should add, as a caveat, that the first of these was taken with an M8, giving a longer effective focal length, whereas the second was taken with an M240. I was just playing around with old lenses on modern digital cameras rather than conducting a scientific experiment. I am not one of those 'brick wall' photographers.

William

 

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[jerzy]

vor 15 Stunden schrieb eastwestphoto:

...  so I wonder if any has seen a low serial # summar with circular blades ...

 

 

In none of articles about Summar which I have seen (and some of them were written by the people beeing very close to Leitz factory) it is ever mentioned that collapsible with circular iris do exist. Assuming that the blades from rigid will fit mechanically into collapsible mount it is however possible that some of the early conversion could have round iris.

But, if you want to test the bookeh of collapsible with circular iris do the experiment which I described in a separate thread few month ago. Assembling the blades is a bit tricky so you might ask repair person to do it for you. You will have than two Summars with circular iris, one will stop down to f10 and second to f18 approx.

[jerzy]

Am 24. April 2019 um 05:27 schrieb alan mcfall:

 so it may be that the "unallocated lot" of 503600-800 may represent the true end of Summar....

 

Alan, Leicashop has currently 503825 on sale, it is sitting on black/chrome III

 

[jerzy]

The III is interesting as well, 293247, with Wismuth lettering...

[willeica]

4 minutes ago, jerzy said:

The III is interesting as well, 293247, with Wismuth lettering...

I have a black III with chrome fittings SN 249442 with similar lettering, although my example looks more gold than the Leicashop example which is more towards white than mine.

William

[eastwestphoto]

8 hours ago, jerzy said:

In none of articles about Summar which I have seen (and some of them were written by the people beeing very close to Leitz factory) it is ever mentioned that collapsible with circular iris do exist. Assuming that the blades from rigid will fit mechanically into collapsible mount it is however possible that some of the early conversion could have round iris.

But, if you want to test the bookeh of collapsible with circular iris do the experiment which I described in a separate thread few month ago. Assembling the blades is a bit tricky so you might ask repair person to do it for you. You will have than two Summars with circular iris, one will stop down to f10 and second to f18 approx.

Very early serial # Rigid Summar 5cm/2 was made with a circular iris design. Some very few conversions still have that iris design, in them. Admittedly almost impossible to find,  and since most all writers concentrate on serial #'s and design variations, they didn't write about the changed  iris design, as they never came across one? . The iris design was changed to Hexagonal domed shaped (Collapsible) to keep the F:stop # accurate when the focus was changed ; due to double guass optical design.

             These days with advanced metering technology that is all,  a mote point!  But the Bokeh characteristic of the Summar 5cm changed when hexagonal iris was used. does anyone have a #1671xx rigid summar;  that can post a sharp picture of the Iris design, its has to be in the first 99 Summar RIGID lenses ever made. No converts! 

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Welp, this little fella came in today. 12 blades in a Hexagon pattern. The 2.9 mark. Probably re-housed unfortunately. The aperture is tight and the glass is in not great shape but I'll be sending it off to be CLA'd. Pretty amazing to see such a low numbered version. I think it's chrome too, but that makes sense with a conversion I guess. Probably going to sell it along as I don't collect them but fun to handle in the meantime.

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Edited August 17, 2019 by Hello

[Giuliobigazzi]

Great find! Your lens is not on the production list of rigid summars or list of conversions. This Summar is most likely started its life as a black nose original collapsible model from 1933, and then upgraded/rehoused. 

 

Edited August 17, 2019 by Giuliobigazzi
Addition

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46 minutes ago, Giuliobigazzi said:

Great find! Your lens is not on the production list of rigid summars or list of conversions. This Summar is most likely started its life as a black nose original collapsible model from 1933, and then upgraded/rehoused. 

 

Good to know! I was hoping it may have not been on that list. Interesting that it may have been a black rim Summar. I thought they came along later. I have one of those as well.

[willeica]

This is an extremely early Summar, the 176th example from normal production, which has been converted. It almost certainly started life as a rigid example and is probably nickel. You have used artificial light with a yellow caste, but you should be able to tell from comparison with other nickel  and chrome items in your collection. People had them converted to be able to use the AGFA colour filters, hence the f2.9 mark. Unfortunately rigid items fetch much more than converted items because of scarcity today. As for the black rims, the two collapsible models I have with black rims are in the 19x, xxx range. I know that black rim rigids exist, but my rigid with an SN  in the 186, xxx range has no black rim.

William

Edited August 17, 2019 by willeica

[Giuliobigazzi]

Collapsible and rigid summars were both produced in 1933 concurrently, in the price list image attached they both show for sale, the previous price list in March 1933 does not show any summars produced. I guess it’s hard to know for sure but usually conversions have a circular iris. All conversions from rigid are documented, and this lens is not on that list.

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7 hours ago, willeica said:

This is an extremely early Summar, the 176th example from normal production, which has been converted. It almost certainly started life as a rigid example and is probably nickel. You have used artificial light with a yellow caste, but you should be able to tell from comparison with other nickel  and chrome items in your collection. People had them converted to be able to use the AGFA colour filters, hence the f2.9 mark. Unfortunately rigid items fetch much more than converted items because of scarcity today. As for the black rims, the two collapsible models I have with black rims are in the 19x, xxx range. I know that black rim rigids exist, but my rigid with an SN  in the 186, xxx range has no black rim.

William

I beleive it is chrome.

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On 4/21/2019 at 10:01 PM, wlaidlaw said:

I think I may have the later of my 2 Summars, a chrome one from 1937 coated. I am trying to put together an exact copy of my father's favourite Leica, a IIIa with a Summar (coated just post war and re-coated in 1965) and 2 speed MOOLY, which was all stolen in 1967. I have found a lovely IIIa, plus the Summar, with which it was sold originally by Wallace Heaton of New Bond Street, in 1937 (I have the original receipt). I will only be the second owner of this camera, having bought it from the daughter of the first owner. I have also got a working 2 speed MOOLY, well at least on the higher speed. The IIIa and MOOLY are with Malcolm Taylor for a CLA. I have not sent him the Summar, while I decide whether or not to get it coated. Malcolm is currently finishing off work which got held up during his illness last year and has not started the CLA. He has disassembled my 250FF Reporter to see what parts are needed but not ordered them yet, so I suspect if I did send him the Summar, it could be a year before I saw it again. I might wait until Alan Starkie has his coating machine up and running but again, he currently has had my M7, M4-P, M4-2 Winder and M3 for repair/CLA since November, admittedly held up by lack of parts supply from Leica. 

Wilson

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What a pity there appears to be no date on the invoice. Is there anything that confirms the camera's purchase date. Like you I have a previously  one owner 1936 III with F2 Summar which I purchased from the widow of the original owner. I used to have the original box with the camera serial number written on the base by Leica. The box was stolen in a burglary but they didn't find the camera which was in a case under my desk. I managed to find all the stolen cameras, bar one, myself - no thanks to the detective who was hopeless. I told her how to locate them, but she gave up. When i had recovered from my injuries I set about finding them. The result was they found the cameras and caught the blighters. I wish i still had the box with its original tissue.

[jerzy]

Summar 167176 is indeed not listed in Hahne list of rigid and converted Summars (publication 10 Jahre Leica Historica). However the list contains some gaps, more SNs are missing. Hahne prepared as well the list of all screwmount cameras and I know for sure that this list is not 100% accurate. It is however the best what exists and as such has been taken over by many other  authors. I tend to agree with William that this Summar was "born" as rigid and converted in 1933 or after (R mark). 167174 and 167188 are rigid, nickel.

@Giuliogobazi - you shown once here in Forum your collapsible 167547 - this lens is missing as well in the Hahne list. If you have another list with rigid/collapsible Summars pls share with me (us).

thank you Jerzy

[jerzy]

two more things:
- Leitz started with rigid Summars, collapsible were introduced later (at least 6 month) and this is truth, that for some period of time both were available on the market. Acc to Hahne some of rigid were converted to coll before initial shipment. Collapsible start to apper more often from 190290, the highest rigid which I have seen was 190958
- black rim exist both in rigid version (but majority are regular, no black rim), more often in early collapsible version. The lowest coll black rim which I have seen is 190131, until 190603 I found 6 collapsible with black rim. From 192101 until 199314 all collapsible have black rim and are both chrome and nickel

[Giuliobigazzi]

Indeed this is the only list we have to refer to. My lens does not feature in this list and there certainly are gaps in the rigid production. One could assume that the gaps could be assigned to the collapsible versions serial numbers. If the two version co-existed, which the price list would indicate, this theory would be plausible. The reason for the two versions being released side by side, being that the rigid has a rotating barrel, that was not suitable to use with Agfa filters, and the collapsible to be used in conjunction with these.We will never know for sure..I asked Leica a while back who unfortunately have no surviving records.

[Giuliobigazzi]

Does anybody know with certainty what month in 1933 was the Summar released? Price lists indicate between March 1933 and October 1933

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9 minutes ago, jerzy said:

two more things:
- Leitz started with rigid Summars, collapsible were introduced later (at least 6 month) and this is truth, that for some period of time both were available on the market. Acc to Hahne some of rigid were converted to coll before initial shipment. Collapsible start to apper more often from 190290, the highest rigid which I have seen was 190958
- black rim exist both in rigid version (but majority are regular, no black rim), more often in early collapsible version. The lowest coll black rim which I have seen is 190131, until 190603 I found 6 collapsible with black rim. From 192101 until 199314 all collapsible have black rim and are both chrome and nickel

Thanks again Jerzy with regards to these lenses. Your help personally with them is much appreciated. WIth this low of a number (176) do you think it was in that early 6 month window? What is the lowest number collapsible you've seen?

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Here is my black rim Summar. Just serviced by Youxin. It performs very well for the condition of the glass and has somewhat of a glow. The black rim is ever so slightly bent and I've considered using a filter corrector device but for such a valuable and useable lens I'm hesitant to potentially crack the soft brass. This came paired on a very nicely worn Black III mod f.

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Edited August 17, 2019 by Hello

[jerzy]

the lowest collapsible which I have seen  is indeed 167176, next one is 167425, Hahne is quoting 167594 as lowest SN converted 

your lens has been collapsible from the very beginning.

@Giuligibazzi - you are correct, we will never know for sure. But quoting (free translation) Hahne from the same publication: " the first batch of SN assigned was 167001 until 168000. Engraving dept received the order on 14.03.1933, lenses were Summar. The last 150 SNs were used for Sumus",  and further: "on 19.09.1933 tha second batch was assigned, within this batch some lenses were Sumus"  And finaly: "the third batch was assigned on 30.11.1933 and as well in this batch some of them were Sumus".  Pls not that Hahne is using in his article Summar for rigid and Sumus for coll. And front ring is different for rigid and collapsilble.
Last remark is that the dates quoted above are not production dates. Final assembly and shipment could have been later, maybe even months. Currently I am working on IIId (my another thread) and there   are even years between starting assembly and the  final shipment.