M4 Black Paint

[jcraf]

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I have read with interest about these posts and I do have some answers. I just found this forum.

 

Leica did not differentiate chrome and black paint versions of early M4s very well. I think they called M4 serials 118xxxx chrome or black paint. Anyway, about 400-500 were BP with serial numbers between 1181500 and 1182000. These are the earliest original black painted M4s manufactured. Year was 1967.

 

I have actually some real proof about this. I happen to own one of these cameras. It was bought new from Hamburg, Germany and has been with me ever since. I have used it only occasionally during the years and it looks and feels almost like new. And you guessed, the serial number is within the others (1181883).

 

The camera is very beautiful and works like a dream, so I cannot keep it only as a museum peace but I take it out and use it as it was meant to be. I was very lucky to use mainly SLRs from 1970's until the era of digital cameras, so this M4 is now real treat.

 

Regards

 

Raimo

 

Hi Raimo

Thats very interesting. How amazing that you have owned a member of the black paint 1181500 to 1182000 batch from new. That is a truly special thing. And thanks for the information, which seems to confirm that my own M4, the initial subject of this thread, is a 1967 BP model.  Just out of interest, what was your source that this 1967 batch was finished in black paint?

And I agree, the M4 is a lovely camera to use. Smooth as silk, and the black paint is the icing on the cake!

Best wishes

Edited March 10, 2016 by jcraf

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[Raippa]

Just curious - does your M2 have a black painted collar around the rewind button?

If you mean my M4, everything black is painted brass.

[pico]

If you mean my M4, everything black is painted brass.

 

My bad.

[Raippa]

Hi Raimo

Thats very interesting. How amazing that you have owned a member of the black paint 1181500 to 1182000 batch from new. That is a truly special thing. And thanks for the information, which seems to confirm that my own M4, the initial subject of this thread, is a 1967 BP model.  Just out of interest, what was your source that this 1967 batch was finished in black paint?

And I agree, the M4 is a lovely camera to use. Smooth as silk, and the black paint is the icing on the cake!

Best wishes

Hi

Just somewhere in the internet, I don't remember anymore. I was researching for information about my camera some years ago.. I saw also some authorative looking posting about serial numbers that these all were chrome. But that information was obviously false...

[pico]

Hi Raimo

Thats very interesting. How amazing that you have owned a member of the black paint 1181500 to 1182000 batch from new. That is a truly special thing. And thanks for the information, which seems to confirm that my own M4, the initial subject of this thread, is a 1967 BP model.  Just out of interest, what was your source that this 1967 batch was finished in black paint?

 

From Steve Gandy's excellent  site: http://cameraquest.com/mtype.htm

 

Edited March 12, 2016 by pico

[jcraf]

From Steve Gandy's excellent  site: http://cameraquest.com/mtype.htm

 

 

Thanks Pico. The 'Gandy' list was what I was quoting in post #1 when I started the thread. I was wondering if Raimo had another source, or what his source was. But the overwhelming evidence seems to point to all 500 in this batch being BP.

Edited March 13, 2016 by jcraf

[sumolux]

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Wish there were some period articles about refurbishing to get more info on the process...

Edited March 20, 2016 by sumolux

[jpattison]

jcraf,

 

Intrigued by this thread, I checked my Leica Fotografie magazines for 1967 and 68.

The M4 was introduced to readers in the No 3 1967 edition, the next mention was in No 5 of the same year in "Chit Chat" where Chris Broere interviews a professional photographer Ed van der Elsken about the M4. It ends with Ed saying... "When can I get a black M4, please?"

 

An editor's note at the page bottom says... "The M4 will also be available in black finish in the New Year"

i.e. 1968.

 

The next mention is in No 6/1967 on the "At Random" review page, stating... "In response to many requests, especially from photo-journalists, from January next the Leica M4 will be available also in black finish."

 

No mention of  the M4 in any way in the 1968 six editions, except an announcement at Photokina that year that the M2 and M3 production will be stopped in favour of sole production of the M4.

 

The SL was introduced in 1968, and bcause of it's TTL metering, there are a few articles on that.

 

Hope that hasn't stirred things further !

 

John (Chrome M4 user)

[jcraf]

John

 

Thanks. As with all things Leica, things are sometimes not straightforward! Their appears to be strong evidence that the first BP batch was 1181501 to 1182000, as per the posts above and the existence of definite BP models in this batch. In particular, the post by Raimo, the photo in von Hasebrouck's book, etc etc. 

 

It is entirely possible, and indeed very probable, from the evidence available that production of BP models started earlier than the '1968' prediction in LF 6/1967.  

 

Put another way, and setting aside my own interest in my particular camera, LF imay not necessarily be a reliable source in this context, given a great deal of contrary evidence. But it's an interesting new dimension to the story! 

 

Regards

[jpattison]

related...

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/153258-leica-m4-black-paint/

 

John

[jcraf]

related...

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/153258-leica-m4-black-paint/

 

John

 

John

Many thanks for posting this link about another 1181xxx BP 'first batcher'. What an interesting story and what a venerable camera!

Regards

[andym91]

Was this mystery ever solved?

fascinating thread ...

 

Andy 

[A. Cheng]

Recently I discovered this topic in the forum.  It interested me because I have a M4 BP that falls in Gandy's list of year 1967 M4 black, aka the "first batch of 500'.  It is 1181812.

I purchased it in 2012 in Hong Kong for regular use and didn't pursue if it had any special authenticity.  The top plate was already largely paint-off that the shinny brassed surface attracted me a lot aesthetically to own it without a second thought.  Over the years my moderate using it and carelessness add maybe another 10% more of the brassing (e.g. the thin hairline scratches around the script area and more paint-off on the bottom plate).

There were different opinions here about the 500 first batch if they were all BP, or chrome original repainted black by factory, or only a small quantity within the batch were BP original, or so on.  I think, the more samples are presented, the more we understand the facts behind this batch.

First, I believe my M4's serial number should be genuine because a faked one would be costly.

The way of paint stripping and left-over bits seem to me quite smooth and natural, basically same as my other BP Leica products ( LTM bodies and old lenses)  

But I do have some doubts.  While the serial digits still maintain some white paint, the Leica scripts are all black!  They should have no paint at all, like the M4 script next to the numbers, right?  Did someone paint them black after that area was fully brassed?

There are black 'stains' scattering the top plate and side.  It seems that lacquer had well etched into the metal.  Is it normal?

The film rewind knob unveils silvery edge, therefore I think it's not made of brass.  Someone said here a BP original should have a brass rewind knob.  My old eyes could not see if the crank is brass or not.  The film rewind release is brass for sure.

With a few pictures uploaded, I hope your expertise and judgement could further enlighten me.  Thanks for spending time for my little humble M4.

 

 

 

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[A. Cheng]

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[A. Cheng]

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[A. Cheng]

Somebody hand crafted a number on the bottom plate. Would anyone know what it is?  A phone number or anything related to journalist?

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[Doug A]

45 minutes ago, A. Cheng said:

Somebody hand crafted a number on the bottom plate. Would anyone know what it is?  A phone number or anything related to journalist?

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It's a United States social security number. 

[A. Cheng]

9 hours ago, Doug A said:

It's a United States social security number. 

Thank you, Doug.

So at least I know the camera had stayed in US for sometime before settling down in Asia.. 

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[dubois pierre]

On 5/20/2022 at 10:49 PM, A. Cheng said:

Somebody hand crafted a number on the bottom plate. Would anyone know what it is?  A phone number or anything related to journalist?

 

 

Social Security Number: 169-32-6918. 

This is most likely the social security number of the last American owner who resided in Pennsylvania. Social Security Number for Pennsylvania 159-211. This camera may have belonged to a famous photographer but this number remains secret and no American office will give you the identity of this person.

The SSN, on the other hand, has mainly an identification role in the United States. Composed of nine digits: the first 3 corresponding to the geographical area where you requested it, the 2 chosen arbitrarily and the last 4, your serial number; it is a unique and confidential registration number.

 

 

 

 

 

[nitroplait]

17 minutes ago, dubois pierre said:

 

 

Social Security Number: 169-32-6918. 

This is most likely the social security number of the last American owner who resided in Pennsylvania. Social Security Number for Pennsylvania 159-211. This camera may have belonged to a famous photographer but this number remains secret and no American office will give you the identity of this person.

The SSN, on the other hand, has mainly an identification role in the United States. Composed of nine digits: the first 3 corresponding to the geographical area where you requested it, the 2 chosen arbitrarily and the last 4, your serial number; it is a unique and confidential registration number.

What then may be the point of engraving it on the camera if the owner is confidential and cannot be matched with the camera?

Edited May 23, 2022 by nitroplait