jcraf Posted January 1, 2016 Share #1 Posted January 1, 2016 Advertisement (gone after registration) In an idle and perhaps paranoid moment, I have been trying to find out some information about my M4 Black paint. The serial number is 1 181 922, dating it to 1967 and the first batch of BP M4 cameras (?). A similar camera, number 1 181 693, appears in van Hasbroeck's book (plate 121, p176). Additionally Stephen Gandy's Cameraquest 'list' puts both cameras the first batch of BP M4s. The camera is brassing nicely and on the vulcanite below the frame selector has a small square gold and black stylized badge which includes the words 'Cattaneo' and 'Importer'. I understand that Cattaneo was an Italian Leica importer for some years. The badge is stuck fast to the vulcanite. The camera has four black screws in the hotshoe which I understand was found on these early black paint cameras. It appears to my eyes that the 'L' seal is intact. So, a 1967 BP M4 by all reasonable reckoning? Trouble is, I made the mistake of asking Wetzlar to confirm and thus far they have said 'Chrome'......they have requested photos but thus far have not come back. I bought the camera for a very reasonable price, and I love using it, so even it is not genuine it gives me pleasure! Any advice gratefully received!! I can PM photos if required. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 1, 2016 Posted January 1, 2016 Hi jcraf, Take a look here M4 Black Paint. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
willeica Posted January 1, 2016 Share #2 Posted January 1, 2016 There is a discrepancy between Cameraquest and Laney/Blue Book as regards the serial numbers. Cameraquest quotes SN 1181501 as being the first black M4 model, whereas Laney/Blue Book say it is 1185151. Leica may be using the latter which could explain the situation. The existence of the example in van Hasbroeck's book would seem to support the Cameraquest list. I would go back to Leica quoting the foregoing and ask them to check factory or shipping records if they still exist. Just a few thoughts. William Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcraf Posted January 1, 2016 Author Share #3 Posted January 1, 2016 There is a discrepancy between Cameraquest and Laney/Blue Book as regards the serial numbers. Cameraquest quotes SN 1181501 as being the first black M4 model, whereas Laney/Blue Book say it is 1185151. Leica may be using the latter which could explain the situation. The existence of the example in van Hasbroeck's book would seem to support the Cameraquest list. I would go back to Leica quoting the foregoing and ask them to check factory or shipping records if they still exist. Just a few thoughts. William Hi William Yes, there is some suggestion from others that in fact Leica's records may not be entirely reliable. I can't imagine van Hasbroeck being caught out, but of course anything is possible. I've been back to them with the info I posted above plus some pics (their suggestion). The Cameraquest list source is credited as being as from Leica though, albeit from earlier Solms days perhaps? To my mind, but perhaps not others, the amount of effort in faking a BP M4 would not be economically worth it. An M2 or M3 I can understand. Regards John Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted January 1, 2016 Share #4 Posted January 1, 2016 (edited) Cattaneo (Genova)used to be the historical official Leitz distributor for Italy, with a complete well equipped lab (many precious devices from its lab are still in Genova, at a well known Leica repairer). Just a thought : the presence of its badge could mean that the camera was serviced at its lab.... maybe vulcanite recovering... maybe also repaint from an originally chrome M4 ? Edited January 1, 2016 by luigi bertolotti 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted January 1, 2016 Share #5 Posted January 1, 2016 I am intrigued. It might be interesting to place two black paint M4s side by side for comparison. I have an uncontested black M4 # 1185231 I could photograph if it would help. Speaking of the hot shoe screws, I have noticed that the screws show a mild blue-black hue under LED light. Perhaps that is so due to being painted steel rather than brass. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcraf Posted January 1, 2016 Author Share #6 Posted January 1, 2016 I am intrigued. It might be interesting to place two black paint M4s side by side for comparison. I have an uncontested black M4 # 1185231 I could photograph if it would help. Speaking of the hot shoe screws, I have noticed that the screws show a mild blue-black hue under LED light. Perhaps that is so due to being painted steel rather than brass. Hi Pico Thanks. A photo of your M4 would be helpful. Feel free to do it via PM if that is better for you. This is definitely a bit of a mystery but the Camerquest list places all of these cameras as BP; yours being a 1968 one, mine and the 'Hasbroeck' one both being 1967s. Best wishes John Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcraf Posted January 1, 2016 Author Share #7 Posted January 1, 2016 Advertisement (gone after registration) Cattaneo (Genova)used to be the historical official Leitz distributor for Italy, with a complete well equipped lab (many precious devices from its lab are still in Genova, at a well known Leica repairer). Just a thought : the presence of its badge could mean that the camera was serviced at its lab.... maybe vulcanite recovering... maybe also repaint from an originally chrome M4 ? Thanks Luigi That's interesting. I assume that before repainting in black paint, any decent workshop would strip the chrome finish camera back to the brass (?) (presumably to assist paint adhesion). And of course, any such camera would then show brassing with paint wear? I remain confused on this one though, with conflicting evidence between Leica, Stepen Gandy's Cameraquest list (obtained apparently via Leica) and the van Hasebroeck example. Regards John Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. No Posted January 1, 2016 Share #8 Posted January 1, 2016 (edited) why can't you guys publish the pictures in this thread? would be interesting also for the other readers? Edited January 1, 2016 by Dr. No 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcraf Posted January 1, 2016 Author Share #9 Posted January 1, 2016 OK....Here goes. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/255056-m4-black-paint/?do=findComment&comment=2959877'>More sharing options...
jcraf Posted January 1, 2016 Author Share #10 Posted January 1, 2016 ...and more Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/255056-m4-black-paint/?do=findComment&comment=2959880'>More sharing options...
jcraf Posted January 1, 2016 Author Share #11 Posted January 1, 2016 ...last couple Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/255056-m4-black-paint/?do=findComment&comment=2959883'>More sharing options...
jcraf Posted January 1, 2016 Author Share #12 Posted January 1, 2016 (edited) ...last one, honest ( image Copyright P van Hasebroeck) Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited January 1, 2016 by jcraf 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/255056-m4-black-paint/?do=findComment&comment=2959884'>More sharing options...
Dr. No Posted January 1, 2016 Share #13 Posted January 1, 2016 (edited) appreciated Edited January 1, 2016 by Dr. No 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan mcfall Posted January 1, 2016 Share #14 Posted January 1, 2016 (edited) This is my "observed" list of M4 Black Paint cameras that occur between 1180001 and 1181999. With only one camera in the first 1000, it is probably a repaint. With 11 recorded in the group of 1181xxx, it is less likely that they are all repaints. So, yours has some others close to it and I think has a good chance of being original. Regards. 1180xxx-1182000 1180899 1181251 1181510 1181552 1181610 1181663 1181687 1181693 1181752 1181922 1181968 1181969 Edited January 1, 2016 by alan mcfall 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted January 2, 2016 Share #15 Posted January 2, 2016 (edited) This is my "observed" list of M4 Black Paint cameras that occur between 1180001 and 1181999. With only one camera in the first 1000, it is probably a repaint. With 11 recorded in the group of 1181xxx, it is less likely that they are all repaints. So, yours has some others close to it and I think has a good chance of being original. Regards. 1180xxx-1182000 1180899 1181251 1181510 1181552 1181610 1181663 1181687 1181693 1181752 1181922 1181968 1181969 Your information is very interesting! May I ask how you have verified the few black painted M4 cameras? Thank you very much. Edited January 2, 2016 by pico Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
duckrider Posted January 2, 2016 Share #16 Posted January 2, 2016 To my eyes the "Ernst Leitz..." engravings look as (well done) repaint. Black colour around the engraving seems too thick. I did own a repaint M2 some yrs. ago looking similar. Thomas 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sumolux Posted January 2, 2016 Share #17 Posted January 2, 2016 To my eyes the "Ernst Leitz..." engravings look as (well done) repaint. Black colour around the engraving seems too thick. I did own a repaint M2 some yrs. ago looking similar. Thomas Yes, same experience and feeling here. Could also just be a 'bad paint day', but it looks strange. Also, on the front it looks almost like brushstrokes here and there, but this could be surface dirt? Or perhaps all these things could be the result of re-touching the existing (black) paint? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pecole Posted January 2, 2016 Share #18 Posted January 2, 2016 This thread evoked distant memories, so I went searching through the - unarranged, unfortunately - photos of my Fontenelle Collection, and discovered the following ones of my nº 1247860. Curiously, the M4 wears the same Cattaneo badge. When I acquired this Leica in Italy in May 1982, I asked my italian friend collector Ghester Sartorius what was the meaning of the badge. He confirmed what Luigi Bertolotti says about the official importer and representative, but contrary to Luigi, told me that all bodies sold by Cattaneo weared the badge. "My" M4 has been duly identified by Leitz Wetzlar as being an original black paint, originating from the same 1246xxx - 1266xxx batch. By the way, I had two more black paint M4's in my collection : 1246970 (acquired in June, 1987 but clearly repaired since the back "door" was black chrome) and 1266767 (May, 1986). My original 1247860 came with its original black paint MR4 cell and a black paint Summicron 35 nº 1632043 (with black paint cap). About this lens, it is interesting to note that the bayonet mount was brass! I was told by Leitz, when asking about this strange brass mount, that it was one of the five very first Summicron 35 with M mount produced at the end of 1958. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/255056-m4-black-paint/?do=findComment&comment=2960354'>More sharing options...
Bill Livingston Posted January 2, 2016 Share #19 Posted January 2, 2016 It looks like a repainted M4 to me too... the paint just doesn't look right. Too think and too uneven in both cover and reflectivity, particularly on the rewind knob and the top plate. It doesn't look naturally brassed either. It looks as though what little black paint has worn, has allowed the underlying chrome to show through... you have to go through that, and its quite heard wearing, before you see the underlying brass... So almost everything points to a repainted camera to me... although there is one way to find out for certain. You could always send it to Wetzlar for a CLA and a full inspection... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcraf Posted January 2, 2016 Author Share #20 Posted January 2, 2016 It looks like a repainted M4 to me too... the paint just doesn't look right. Too think and too uneven in both cover and reflectivity, particularly on the rewind knob and the top plate. It doesn't look naturally brassed either. It looks as though what little black paint has worn, has allowed the underlying chrome to show through... you have to go through that, and its quite heard wearing, before you see the underlying brass... So almost everything points to a repainted camera to me... although there is one way to find out for certain. You could always send it to Wetzlar for a CLA and a full inspection... Thanks all. I can't see any chrome on the camera, only brassing showing through the paint wear. Most noticeable on the crank, counter window and edge of the winder lever. Which means that if it's a chrome to BP repaint the chrome would need to have been removed. I am unsure whether this is routinely done/required on BP repaints - presumably it adds to the cost. Strangely enough the paint on the top plate looks thick and uneven in the photo and yet is quite smooth and even in the flesh, so to speak. You can perhaps see this better in the oblique view from the crank end. A similar uneven effect is seen in Laney's tome in a photo of a BP M4-M, around the white script on the top plate. The other 'brush' artefacts that are mentioned are indeed just down surface dirt, greasy fingermarks in fact (mea culpa). I am still left with mystery of the Cameraquest BP batch numbers (sourced via Leica), and the van Hasebroeck camera, proximal in number to mine. To me it feels right somehow. I'll wait and see what Wetzlar says. Whatever happens, it's a nice camera and of all of the many Ms I have owned, it feels and shoots the best. And financially speaking, we're hardly verifying the identity of a Picasso, just satisfying curiosity! Regards 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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