Exposure on an M3?

[scubasimon]

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Question...how do you get reliable exposure? I must admit I am struggling with this.

[rpavich]

Question...how do you get reliable exposure? I must admit I am struggling with this.

What exactly do you mean by "reliable"?

Are you saying that you cannot judge exposure or that the camera is faulty?

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[jaapv]

By using an exposure meter. Or do you mean that your shuttertimes are variable? In that case the camera needs a CLA

[earleygallery]

Are you using a light meter or guessing?

 

If you're guessing I suggest you need to buy a light meter - get a handheld digital meter, don't buy an old Leicameter.

[earleygallery]

And just a thought, you do realise that there's no built in meter on the M3?...

[AAK]

Several options:

 

1. For shooting in daylight, use the "Sunny 16" rule (Google the term Sunny 16 if you're not familiar with it).

2. Use the Light Meter app if you have an iPhone. There are probably equivalent apps for Android.

3. Buy a light meter. The major types are reflective meters (like a Leicameter or Voigtlander that fits in the shoe on top of your camera), or incident light meters (like Gossen or Sekonic brands). The iPhone Light Meter app is reflective but there are attachments by Luxi (maybe others, too) that function as an incident light meter. The vast majority of built-in meters in cameras are reflective, but there are good reasons to prefer incident light meters.

 

After some experience it will come naturally, at least for outdoor shooting in daylight where the Sunny 16 rule is generally reliable.

Edited December 13, 2015 by AAK

[spydrxx]

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If the camera is in good shape, reliability of the camera isn't in question, it is the head behind the camera. As others suggested either get a good light meter and learn how to use it, or learn the Sunny 16 (or 11 if you are in the UK) rule.

[hepcat]

Does anyone else find this question to be a little odd?  Someone has the cash and enough knowledge about photography to buy an M3; has enough tech saavy to find the Leica forum; and as his very first post asks a very open-ended and general question like this, without any background about how the camera is used or why his exposures are "unreliable?"  But he apparently doesn't have the tech saavy to find the answer online to a very basic question about exposure or take time to discuss what makes him think his exposure is "unreliable?"

 

Perhaps I'm reading more into this than I ought to...  and if the OP is a legitimate new member, I offer my apologies. 

[scubasimon]

Thanks for the responses folks. Really appreciate it.

 

Perhaps I should have phrased my question a little better but I was trying to get it through as I was heading onto my flight so had to rush it.

 

I am familiar with photography and have been using cameras with a meter for many years. However, I have very little to no experience using one without a meter. The M3 is accurate, all CLA done and exposure is alright when I do use a meter. I used both a meter on my iPhone as well as my sekonic. However, I found it to be too much of a hassle. I would like to be able to estimate the exposure but am getting frustrated because I am either a stop under or over each time I try to do this when checking with my iphone.

 

Unfortunately most articles, and I have read many, suggests the sunny 16 (which some have suggested here too). I found out that I am terrible at it and would like to know how you go about getting better. I mean, other than just keep on trying...is there a technique that worked for you? It is hard to gauge shadows because many times there are no shadows here being usually cloudy...but bright...not sure if this makes any sense.

 

Perhaps this is also the wrong place to post this and if there is a better place I would be happy to move the question there.

 

Thanks for your patience and help. I will keep trying and shooting with this as I really like the M3 feel...just hate my terrible ability to gauge the proper exposure.

[250swb]

Unfortunately most articles, and I have read many, suggests the sunny 16 (which some have suggested here too). I found out that I am terrible at it and would like to know how you go about getting better.

 

You get better by working with knowledge. Where do you get that knowledge? You use a light meter. It's no good trying to take short cuts. However with negative film your estimate of one stop over or one stop under exposure shouldn't be a massive problem, so if it is accurate something else is going on in post processing the image that is also causing a problem.

 

Use a reflectance meter, point it at the proper things, grass or the palm of your hand, something the reflects an 18% grey. What happens is after a few years you get used to what the meter reads and what you see, and then every now and again you will be able to guess an exposure setting accurately. But even very experienced photographers still use a meter because knowledge is more valuable than guesswork. You could perhaps try to find a working Leicameter to clip onto the camera which may speed things up if the fast pace of modern life is too great.

 

Steve

[scubasimon]

You get better by working with knowledge. Where do you get that knowledge? You use a light meter. It's no good trying to take short cuts. However with negative film your estimate of one stop over or one stop under exposure shouldn't be a massive problem, so if it is accurate something else is going on in post processing the image that is also causing a problem.

 

Use a reflectance meter, point it at the proper things, grass or the palm of your hand, something the reflects an 18% grey. What happens is after a few years you get used to what the meter reads and what you see, and then every now and again you will be able to guess an exposure setting accurately. But even very experienced photographers still use a meter because knowledge is more valuable than guesswork. You could perhaps try to find a working Leicameter to clip onto the camera which may speed things up if the fast pace of modern life is too great.

 

Steve

 

I did read that one stop over or under should not be a massive problem. I think you are right that perhaps my development work needs work because my negatives come out either too exposed (lots of see through blank parts) or lots of under exposed areas. That is an area I am working on especially trying to keep the temperature of the chemicals at 20C. Not easy when the ambient temperature is usually 28-34C.

 

Back to metering. I like the idea of taking a reading of my palm because I think it will eliminate other variables. I guess you are right that it takes a lot more work than just a couple months of shooting with this camera. I suppose sticking to one film speed would help too. Definitely something for me to work on.

 

Thanks again!

[pop]

For the record: if you can see through the negative, it's either underexposed or underdevelopped. Remember that it's a negative: more light means a darker negative.

[hepcat]

 I guess you are right that it takes a lot more work than just a couple months of shooting with this camera. I suppose sticking to one film speed would help too. Definitely something for me to work on.

 

Thanks again!

 

First, again my apology for my earlier post.  Thank you for being so gracious as to further explain your dilemma. 

 

Shooting film isn't difficult, but it requires consistency, patience, and self-discipline to learn how to do it well using a fully manual camera like a Leica M film body.  Steve is right, there are no short cuts.  It requires consistency in technique, film speed, metering, and film processing methods.   Shooting a single speed of film initially eliminates one variable from the formula of determining proper exposure and promotes consistency.  When you've mastered a single film speed, then you'll have enough knowledge to compensate for that variable as well.    Shooting regularly builds consistency and your "eye."  Negative film is pretty forgiving, but getting the exposure right the first time really makes your negatives 'pop.'

 

Since you're taking film on, I'd suggest that you spend the time to learn the Zone System...  or at least the basic tenants.   Using a reflected light meter in conjunction with the Zone System and/or the "Sunny 16 rule"  will greatly simplify your learning curve, and will put you on the path to consistently making well-exposed negatives.  

 

Unfortunately most articles, and I have read many, suggests the sunny 16 (which some have suggested here too). I found out that I am terrible at it and would like to know how you go about getting better. I mean, other than just keep on trying...is there a technique that worked for you? It is hard to gauge shadows because many times there are no shadows here being usually cloudy...but bright...not sure if this makes any sense.

 

 

And perhaps I'm reading in too much here again, but just to clarify, the Sunny 16 rule is that you set your shutter speed to the same value as the film ISO, and then gauge your aperture by the amount of sun... bright sun is f/16, hazy sun f/11, bright overcast f/8. open shade f/5.6, full shade f/4 and so forth... it really only gets dicey when you're shooting indoors, or after dusk, or it's one of those days with bright sun punctuated by thick, fast-moving clouds...  even then it's just a matter of whether you're in the full sun or full shade though.   If you need to use a faster or slower shutter speed, you adjust your apertures accordingly.   Use your meter to confirm your best guess...  it shouldn't take you long to get consistent exposures. 

Edited December 14, 2015 by hepcat

[AAK]

If one is using film that doesn't have a equal setting for the shutter speed of a Leica film camera (like ISO 100, 160, 400, or 800), I've read that one should use the next higher shutter speed for Sunny 16:

 

ISO  1/Shutter Speed (s)

100   125

160   250

400   500

800   1000

 

As regards getting an "eye" for weather conditions, it's easy to practice by judging whether the conditions are bright sunny/hazy sun/slight overcast/overcast/heavy overcast and then checking with the iPhone Light Meter app (or your light meter). You can do this without actually taking any photographs.

The more tricky part is indoor photography, and here I still resort to an incident light meter. But with negative film, and especially in this era of Lightroom/Photoshop adjustment, a stop or two in either direction is not a catastrophe.

[earleygallery]

It wasn't clear from your first post how knowledgeable you were, hence my comment about the M3 not having a built in meter - I've read comments a few times from first time film users buying an M3 and asking why the film speed dial on the back doesn't seem to work! 

 

Sunny 16, or Sunny 11 as I think it is for UK weather, does work but only after you have enough metering experience to judge the light yourself. 

 

As Steve has said above, the best way to get that experience is to use a meter - buy a s/h handheld meter if you don't want to spend much, you can pick up older but working meters at camera fairs for £10-20. Ideally choose one that can take incident readings too (so you read the light falling onto the subject, rather than reflected off it). 

 

Meter with or without your camera - you can just carry it about and try to guess exposure then check it against the meter. You'll soon get to appreciate different types of light and it will make you think about light and exposure much more. 

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Everybody,

 

Another alternative for people who like to calculate the exposure themselves who already posses a light meter is:

To fill in the engraved "B", numbers & blitz on the shutter speed dial.

 

Paint the now smooth dial top 1 solid color.

 

Take an exposure reading with the light meter. Set the aperture appropriately.

 

Figure out where the appropriate shutter speed is on the dial. 

 

Turn the shutter speed dial to that point. Don't count the "clicks".

 

Take a perfectly exposed picture.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

Edited December 15, 2015 by Michael Geschlecht

[scubasimon]

Thanks for the responses! Very helpful indeed. What I think I will do given all the alternatives is simply to try to take more pictures, refine my film processing process, try my best to NOT use a light meter because that is starting to feel like a crutch, do this for another two months and see if I am improving...I will probably not be smoothening out my shutter speed dial and go by feel...sounds like a bit of an overkill :-)

[250swb]

How can all these responses be helpful if you still decide not to use a light meter? It isn't sissy to use a light meter, but it is stupid not to for the sake of what? Bravado? Inevitably the majority of braggarts (I'm thinking of certain other camera forums) who boast of not needing a light meter are bad photographers for whom playing with cameras is more important than the end photograph. So what is the priority, camera playtime or the photograph? 

 

Steve

Edited December 15, 2015 by 250swb

[AAK]

That seems like a rather aggressive response, Steve, to a person asking a basic question. Not everyone needs to use a light meter, especially in daylight out-of-doors photography.

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[scubasimon]

I guess to each his own. I get frustrated with a light meter. It feels like a crutch to always have to check because I am not confident. I don't think it is stupid nor bravado but an experiment of a few months. There is nothing to lose if it does not work out but everything to gain if I end up getting good negatives.

 

I think everyone will prize a different process. For me the joy is when I can shoot without looking at an external meter. It feels cumbersome and I find no real joy in that process. That is why after reading all the feedback I have decided on this course of action.

 

I really do not mind hearing any kind of feedback. It is always nice to have the honesty.