Indoor Photography and Flash Suggestion

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As the M240 does not have image stabilizer, exceptionally good hand-holding technique is essential for sharp results at slower shutter speeds.  But camera shake is only the sole issue with static subjects.  Motion blur is also present if the subject is moving, and there is nothing other than a higher shutter speed or flash for that. 

 

I have used GMC aka "TTL" flash on M9 and M240 and find the pre-flash an annoyance to the subject as well as contributing to shutter lag.  I find the "AUTO" setting much more suitable, and for that there is no need to spend a fortune on a strobe.  There are tons of Sunpak and Vivitar flashes out there for <$25 that at least bounce, and many swivel.  Some have 2 auto aperture choices, some 3 or 4. 

 

Going up a bit in price, older Nikon flashes SB24,25, and 26 have multiple auto aperture choices.  These do bounce and swivel and are powerful and can be run on several battery types.

 

For about the same money as one of the Nikons, a Metz 54 MZ3 with any Leica SCA3502 module from M1 on up will do AUTO (not TTL) flash, plus it will communicate with the M body for ISO setting, so you don't have to remember to input it manually if you change it on the camera. 

 

Personally I find those large, heavy cobra flashes unbalanced and cumbersome on a Leica.  My preference is an SB24D (SB20 would be ok, but it has fewer auto aperture choices).  I use it on-camera with an inexpensive diffuser which I find works even better than bounce (small, low-power flashes have trouble with high and/or dark ceilings; and bounce is still directional and casts shadows).  I posted it here: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/239613-leica-sf24d-and-sf20-bounce-solution/

[ECohen]

My SB-800 works properly in both manual and Auto on my M9 and Monochrom.  I'll find out this Wednesday how it works on the M-240.  Might be worth mentioning that Auto mode (auto-thyrister) is different from TTL.  In TTL the camera controls the flash exposure and Nikon flashes don't support TTL on Leica bodies. In Auto mode the shooting aperture and ISO are manually entered into the flash and the flash automatically controls the flash exposure using a sensor in the flash.  Many third party flashes will work on the Leica M in this mode.  In some lighting situations (backlighting, point light sources in the frame, etc.) Auto seems to produce better exposures than TTL.

 

Can you help me Luke?

OK I guess we're off topic here but we're circling a good solution....I really don't want to buy a Leica flash but it would be nice to use the M240 for general snaps....with the Nikon strobe I currently own

 

240M does work with the Nikon SB800 in M and in A mode. However In the A mode I cant re-set the ISO on the flash, it stays at ISO 100. If I were using a Nikon camera with this strobe  the ISO would be set automatically to the camera settings (matched electronics)

 I want to use the SB800 as "fill in" on A ,with a higher/adjustable ISO, so I can control/balance the flash output .....any suggestions. Or when using this mismatched electronics,am I  stuck with A  on @ISO 100  or M shooting manually ....which means lots of test shot and missed opportunities 

 

I ask you personally ......because you seem to be familiar with the Leica M240/M9 and Nikon SB800 flash...I know its off topic 

 

Thank you for all your help and advice

[Peter H]

There's a lot of good advice here so this is just a suggestion for consideration in addition to, not instead of, anything here:

 

Flash is great for either specific lighting effects or just as a means to gat a photo where it's just too dark to get anything. But sometimes, (often, in my experience) low light can be a great asset to a photographer and create all kinds of moods and atmospheres as well as shapes and shadows that can make for beautiful photos of the sort that flash might well destroy.

 

But it does need practise and a clear idea of what type of photo you're trying to get. I'd suggest taking plenty of practice shots at home (plenty = never stopping), using manual setting at 1.4 or 2.0 and 1/60 (or a bit slower with practice or a wider lens if you have one) at 1250 (or 1600 to start with) iso and seeing what you can then do with the file in LR or PS to bring the essential details up. Don't be afraid of the shadows though, because they're all part of the scene you're trying to portray.

 

Otherwise, just a small flash will do the job.

 

I've taken countless sets indoors in the long dark evenings under low lighting and rarely if ever use a flash because I prefer the effect I get, but that means I'm not very good with flash as a consequence so my thoughts may be no help to you at all compared with that of more skilled flash-practitioners, but still, worth a brief thought perhaps. And apologies if this is all too obvious, or just wrong for you.

[spydrxx]

Yes the Leicas can be great for low light shots, but when you have subject movement and inherent camera shake due to low shutter speeds, and wide open apertures which demand spot on focusing - it just doesn't work in very low light family get togethers with people chatting and moving about, at least for me. Good exposure is about lighting, and if you can't change the ambient light, bounce flash or highly diffused flash is an easy answer. Over the years I've used all sorts of flashes, from flashbulbs to hammerhead units, to macro ring units. These days I really prefer an old Metz hammerhead unit with my Leicas and bounce flash for capturing family shots in lower light conditions. The advantages for me include camera shake becoming a non-issue due to the extremely short duration of the flash, being able to stop down the lens a tad so that my subject is sharp but giving me some leeway in focusing, and being able to adjust the light to suit the conditions. Not a small discreet package, by any means, but it reliably delivers the results I expect.

[ECohen]

+1 we're not talking art ...it's the occasional family event.......there are probity better suited cameras for the job but I prefer shooting with the LeicaM240 and its easy "old fashion" controls

[Luke_Miller]

 

Can you help me Luke?

OK I guess we're off topic here but we're circling a good solution....I really don't want to buy a Leica flash but it would be nice to use the M240 for general snaps....with the Nikon strobe I currently own

 

240M does work with the Nikon SB800 in M and in A mode. However In the A mode I cant re-set the ISO on the flash, it stays at ISO 100. If I were using a Nikon camera with this strobe  the ISO would be set automatically to the camera settings (matched electronics)

 I want to use the SB800 as "fill in" on A ,with a higher/adjustable ISO, so I can control/balance the flash output .....any suggestions. Or when using this mismatched electronics,am I  stuck with A  on @ISO 100  or M shooting manually ....which means lots of test shot and missed opportunities 

 

I ask you personally ......because you seem to be familiar with the Leica M240/M9 and Nikon SB800 flash...I know its off topic 

 

Thank you for all your help and advice

 

Well apparently I am not as familiar as I thought I was 

 

You are correct - the SB-800 expects to read the ISO set in the body and will not allow it to be manually changed.  It will not read the ISO set in the Leica body and thus defaults to ISO 100.  Somehow I failed to notice this.  My older SB-25 and SB-22 allow full control of the ISO setting. So rather than using the SB-800 at ISO 100 you might consider getting a used older Nikon flash.  They can be had pretty reasonably.  Sorry for the misinformation.

[ECohen]

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That's OK you got me to test my SB800 with M240.....even though I don't have the complete control that I would have with TTL. I can still use it for simple family snaps and I'm sure after a while I'll  figure out how to fool it to bring in some ambient light.....I'm new to Leica  I love the simple menus. The 240 is serving most of my needs and is a pleasure to shoot with........ little by little it will serve them all and I can sell my Nikon system.......a simple life is a good life    

[FlashGordonPhotography]

If the Nikon flash defaults nto ISO 100 it's pretty easy just to det the flash and camera the appropriate distance apart. If the camera is at 200 set an extra stop of aperture. At 1600 ISO det the camera four stops of aperture higher than the flash (f2.0 on the flash and 11 on the camera for example). Then adjust as required for balance.

 

Gordon

[NickR]

I never let ideology get in the way of taking a good picture.  When I have family and friends over the house, I'll always get out my flash to insure plenty of good shots to go along with good memories.  I'll also try and get in some "art" shots without flash as the evening rolls on for my personal tastes.  I mostly use a SF58 with bounce and reflector card in TTL mode.  I've also used my Nikon and Olympus flashes set on auto.

[ECohen]

+1

[Peter H]

I never let ideology get in the way of taking a good picture.  When I have family and friends over the house, I'll always get out my flash to insure plenty of good shots to go along with good memories.  I'll also try and get in some "art" shots without flash as the evening rolls on for my personal tastes. ............

 

I don't know whether you meant to imply this, but you seem to be suggesting that shots taken with a flash are not "art" shots, whereas shots taken without a flash may be.

 

I can't agree with that. Even if we could agree about what constitutes art, I couldn't agree that flash photography is less capable of being artistic than non-flash photography. Sounds almost ideological to me...

[Echo63]

How dark is your house ? 

 

the darkest i have shot in is a Candle lit church, 1/8 f2.8 @6400 ISO (the extra ISO in mine counters the faster aperture in yours) 

it was almost too dark to see the RF patch properly

 

 

as for flash - I have a pair of older Canon speed lights, a 580EX and 580EX2

the 580EX2 has an "auto mode" setup with a custom function - it uses a Thryistor to sense enough light has fallen on the subject - works pretty reliably, even when bouncing - but i prefer to stick a pocket wizard in the hotshoe and run remote flashes.

 

I normally stick them in the corners of the room and aimed at the roof at 1/16 power then set the camera to sync speed (1/180 on the M240)  f4 and 800 ISO

this gives me nice clean files, fast recycle, and the flash isn't overpoweringly bright either (i shot maybe 200 frames for my daughters birthday yesterday, and one person noticed the flashes going off)

 

if you want to balance the inside light with the outside view, wind the flash power up a bit, and expose for outside.

if its dark, you may be able to up the ISO and drop the flash power too 

[hepcat]

As has been said a number of times here, just use the flash when you need to.  And you don't need fancy TTL metering or an expensive flash... I still use my trusty Sunpak 522s when I need to fill a room with light, and my Vivitar 283s for everything else.  You can buy the Sunpak 522 now for about $35 and a Vivitar 283 for under $50.  I do have a couple of suggestions thought...  I always tilt the flash head up about 45* and use a Sto-Fen Omni Bounce when I use flash.  I've shot weddings for thirty years with exactly that setup, and with the flash head at 45* up and the Omni Bounce, it gives nice even soft light in any size room.

 

Experiment a little...  I'll tell you that, with practice, nearly anyone should be able to hand-hold a Leica M-body camera at 1/15th sec without shake-blur though, for available light shots.

[wda]

Thank You Michael - those are very valuable suggestions. Thank You for reminding me about the smaller tripod - that's something I had read about when I started using the camera but totally forgot about it. I will look to getting one and you are absolutely right about practice. I will look for the small tripod. 

I have the Leica table tripod but it is reletively heavy for travel bags. Have you considered the Manfrotto Pixie? Affordable and lighter. A new model is coming with small extendable legs to help with use of a camera on an uneven surfact. It is just like the Pixie but called Evo I think.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

I never let ideology get in the way of taking a good picture.  When I have family and friends over the house, I'll always get out my flash to insure plenty of good shots to go along with good memories.  I'll also try and get in some "art" shots without flash as the evening rolls on for my personal tastes.  I mostly use a SF58 with bounce and reflector card in TTL mode.  I've also used my Nikon and Olympus flashes set on auto.

 

Absolutely.

 

And if you do it right you should also be able to shoot with flash without ruining the ambience of the room. Some bounced fill (which is why I always say go for the SF40 over the 26) to get a sharp subject and drag the shutter to let the natural colours blend in and you get both.

 

Using flash doesn't mean it has to become a dominant and overpowering light source. it can also be a fabulous way to supplement existing light with subtle application.

 

Gordon

[NickR]

I don't know whether you meant to imply this, but you seem to be suggesting that shots taken with a flash are not "art" shots, whereas shots taken without a flash may be.

 

I can't agree with that. Even if we could agree about what constitutes art, I couldn't agree that flash photography is less capable of being artistic than non-flash photography. Sounds almost ideological to me...

 

No, I would never say that.  As Gordon implies and I wholeheartedly agree, using flash can be an art unto itself.  

[Peter H]

No, I would never say that. As Gordon implies and I wholeheartedly agree, using flash can be an art unto itself.

Yes, I agree too. I don't know where this whole art/ not art thing came from in the first place, a slight misunderstanding I imagine, but it's completely out of place in this thread isn't it?

[ECohen]

Yes, I agree too. I don't know where this whole art/ not art thing came from in the first place, a slight misunderstanding I imagine, but it's completely out of place in this thread isn't it?

 

Yup +1  

and misplaced on thread

[Enbee]

Thanks everyone! Seems like there a lot of options. I have to leave for a trip today - so I won't be buying anything for now - I will wait until SF-40 comes out. In the meantime - my dad had a flash from 80's - that I will try and see if it works! I will try some other alternatives as well to see if they do the job well. My be vivitar - my brother has a canon flash as well - but that maybe too big for the M-P 240.. 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[FlashGordonPhotography]

Even though Leica states clearly that their hotshoe can handle high voltage flashes, like an old Vivitar, there's no way I'd put that on my $6K Leica. Just but a small manual/auto flash from Amazon, if you want to go that route.

 

Depending on the Canon it might have auto or it may be manual only on your M.

 

Gordon