Peter Kilmister Posted November 6, 2015 Share #41 Posted November 6, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) I asked a polite question to Thorsten and it has not been answered. Perhaps he is a busy chap, however, Billinghambaglady has been incredibly helpful on the subject and I bow to her wisdom on the subject. It is really wonderful when someone helps. A lesson for us all and surely that is what forums (fora) were meant for? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 6, 2015 Posted November 6, 2015 Hi Peter Kilmister, Take a look here Color Photography and the Leica M (New article at overgaard.dk). I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
FeralCoton Posted November 7, 2015 Share #42 Posted November 7, 2015 I asked a polite question to Thorsten and it has not been answered. Perhaps he is a busy chap, however, Billinghambaglady has been incredibly helpful on the subject and I bow to her wisdom on the subject. It is really wonderful when someone helps. A lesson for us all and surely that is what forums (fora) were meant for? I must have missed her reply. I shot color and then convert to bw in lightroom using either silver efx pro or a very nice set of plugin presets called Like-a-Look. Usually tweaking the results of the presets gets me what I want. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted November 7, 2015 Share #43 Posted November 7, 2015 I asked a polite question to Thorsten and it has not been answered. Perhaps he is a busy chap, however, Billinghambaglady has been incredibly helpful on the subject and I bow to her wisdom on the subject. It is really wonderful when someone helps. A lesson for us all and surely that is what forums (fora) were meant for? I shoot both B&W Jpeg and DNG, but I only do that so as to have B&W in Live view since it is easier to focus via the EVF and give me tonal info. I actually got that tip from one of Thorsten's articles. The way to do it is to set image quality as RAW plus b&W jpg. The DNG files always have color info. I never use the B&W jpgs. I find that it is better to convert to B&W in Lightroom, or C1 which I use. The advantage is there is more to play with and it is non-destructive. You can to a certain degree imitate the effects of color filters. My suggestions is to shoot for a while both B&W jpg and DNG, then play with the DNG files, fiddle with the sliders until you get your desired effect. Then compare your results with the in-camera jpg. I think you will find doing B&W in Lightroom can be very rewarding. The only downside is that it takes practice and time to understand the effects of the available manipulations in Lightroom Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedaes Posted November 7, 2015 Share #44 Posted November 7, 2015 I asked a polite question to Thorsten and it has not been answered. Perhaps he is a busy chap, however, Billinghambaglady has been incredibly helpful on the subject and I bow to her wisdom on the subject. It is really wonderful when someone helps. A lesson for us all and surely that is what forums (fora) were meant for? I think the question you asked was well covered in the articlle and he may have found your question a bit patronising. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted November 7, 2015 Share #45 Posted November 7, 2015 I asked a polite question to Thorsten and it has not been answered. Perhaps he is a busy chap, Thorsten most likely thought you were taking the piss. If you weren't, it certainly reads that way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Branch Posted November 7, 2015 Share #46 Posted November 7, 2015 You seem to not understand that both M240 and M246 have a b/w sensor (the same actually). The difference is the presence of the bayer filter in the M240. It's like saying that on b/w film with a yellow filter you have more resolution. Not at all. The point I was making is that the B&W sensor has higher effective spatial resolution precisely because it does not have a filter - in the example being discussed a Bayer Colour Filter Array. However, assuming equally efficient processes which is a critical point, the B&E sensor has lower colour resolution - obviously. In fact the B&W sensor could be regarded as having three colour channels which are totally correlated, so there is no colour resolution - again obviously. This topic is further complicated by the sensitivity of the human visual system which has significantly higher spatial resolution in the green part of the spectrum. It is reported by experts that some, (all?), "DeBayering" software algorithms exploit this and sacrifice spatial resolution in the Red & Blue channels in order to enhance the spatial resolution of the Green channel. Much like many colour TV systems. I've no intension of opening this can of worms which some experts claim is a major factor in the causes of the "Purple Edge" phenomenon. Best let that one rest! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exodies Posted November 7, 2015 Share #47 Posted November 7, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) I do wish you would open this can of worms. The biggest source of disappointment for me with the M is the black box between the lens output and the DNG. Do film shooters put up with such a lack of information about how their emulsions, developers and paper properties work? I wanted to be in control but it's such an opaque system; we're not even told how the jpegs are formed in Lightroom terms. Why? The user manual should explain everything in the fullest detail. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belle123 Posted November 7, 2015 Share #48 Posted November 7, 2015 I must have missed her reply. I shot color and then convert to bw in lightroom using either silver efx pro or a very nice set of plugin presets called Like-a-Look. Usually tweaking the results of the presets gets me what I want. Just to clarify, since mentioned in a post here, I sent Pkilmister some info on learning to process color to b/w on Lightroom. I have found tutorials on youtube very helpful by Anthony Morganti and Serge Ramelli. When I take shots with the M240, I usually save both b/w jpg at the settings I like, and the raw DNG file. Most of the time, working with the raw file and doing the conversion is better but to do it successfully is not obvious and learning a workflow, which these videos (and am sure many others out there), are very helpful.....and might I add they don't cost anything to watch on youtube. They are time consuming but worth every minute. So, here on the forum, would be nice to see more help for those asking. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted November 7, 2015 Share #49 Posted November 7, 2015 You seem to not understand that both M240 and M246 have a b/w sensor (the same actually). The difference is the presence of the bayer filter in the M240. It's like saying that on b/w film with a yellow filter you have more resolution. The increased resolution of the MM versus its sister color based cameras (first the M9, then the M240) has been discussed ad nauseam since product introduction, including in Leica literature, reviews and many posts on the forum. One reason I prefer the M240 for b/w is that I much prefer to have the ability to use multiple (and simultaneous) color channels in PP rather than having to choose a single color filter for camera use....even though the MM would offer greater resolution. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedaes Posted November 7, 2015 Share #50 Posted November 7, 2015 Just to clarify, since mentioned in a post here, I sent Pkilmister some info on learning to process color to b/w on Lightroom. I have found tutorials on youtube very helpful by Anthony Morganti and Serge Ramelli. When I take shots with the M240, I usually save both b/w jpg at the settings I like, and the raw DNG file. Most of the time, working with the raw file and doing the conversion is better but to do it successfully is not obvious and learning a workflow, which these videos (and am sure many others out there), are very helpful.....and might I add they don't cost anything to watch on youtube. They are time consuming but worth every minute. So, here on the forum, would be nice to see more help for those asking. So why not post your initial reply for all to see? For the sake of completeness,a lot of us use Nik Silver Effex as a bolt-on to LR to convert to b&w. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belle123 Posted November 7, 2015 Share #51 Posted November 7, 2015 So why not post your initial reply for all to see? For the sake of completeness,a lot of us use Nik Silver Effex as a bolt-on to LR to convert to b&w. I use Silver Efex as well. But learning LR first is fundamental. And I did not reply publicly. Think in my response here, have pretty much included what I wrote as far as useful information. Can you blame me for not sticking my neck out? A lot of negativity up here at times. Who needs it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Kilmister Posted November 7, 2015 Share #52 Posted November 7, 2015 If anyone thinks that asking a question is "taking the p!ss" then I'm afraid they have failed to understand principles of communication. Anyone, including me, is perfectly entitled to ask a simple question on a complex subject. Nobody should be entitled to patronise the questioner for asking? Thankfully a very kind-hearted, and extremely useful, answer was received. I am now happily on the right road to learning more. So I'll now disappear down my hole and leave people to hurl abuse about again as they see fit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted November 7, 2015 Share #53 Posted November 7, 2015 Thorsten most likely thought you were taking the piss. If you weren't, it certainly reads that way. Why does it read that way? BTW. This is not taking the piss out of anyone, but asking serious question. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJFlowers Posted November 9, 2015 Share #54 Posted November 9, 2015 A very interesting and thoughtful article thank you Thorston....stimulates thoughts and its helpful as part of continuous learning process... What is also interesting also how these threads also start to deviate and "grouchy" comments start to creep in....bit of a shame really when I suppose all any one of us should be interested in is learning more, challenging the "norms "and questioning to learn even more....Then applying what you learnt through the view finder.......trying different techniques... Maybe it's 66.6% of all Leica pictures are in black and white, or maybe its not.... Who cares on the exact percentage.....but what is clear from all I've seen is that great photographs can come in Colour or Black and White....and there's a place for both....and there's always a place for trying something new for a change.... Off to takes some pictures now.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Kilmister Posted November 10, 2015 Share #55 Posted November 10, 2015 If anyone looks at my initial posting in this section they will see that Thorston has thanked me. That makes it perfectly clear to me that he considers it was neither "taking the p!ss", nor that it was "patronising". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlatkob Posted November 10, 2015 Share #56 Posted November 10, 2015 Would it be better to use Lightroom rather than the M240 to produce B&W or vice versa? The reason I ask is that the M240 has a setting to take B&W. Lightroom has an option to convert to B&W. It is a good question with no simple answer. Which is "better" is partly a question of taste, and partly a question of practicality. Lightroom can produce a seemingly endless variety of B&W looks and adjustments, while the M240 can't. So you can use Lightroom to create a B&W that you like, or a B&W that is carefully crafted for a particular image. And you can use Lightroom with an amazing variety of presets and plugins from various sources. The incredible variety and malleability of B&W options in Lightroom makes it better — provided you're willing to do the conversion and the crafting. However, from a strictly practical point of view, it may be better simply to set the camera to B&W. Then one has a B&W ready from the camera, and there is no conversion to B&W waiting to be done. And if one shoots DNG + jpeg, one still has the option to craft the DNG file in Lightroom if the camera's B&W turned out unsatisfactory. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Kilmister Posted November 10, 2015 Share #57 Posted November 10, 2015 Many thanks, zlatkob, for your helpful advice. I have been learning all sorts of things about Lightroom that I never knew before being advised by billinghambaglady to look at the wealth of information on YouTube. It is great fun to discover more. My preference now is to capture in DNG and process however I want in LR. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted November 11, 2015 Share #58 Posted November 11, 2015 Actually my technique is to use DNG + JPG Fine. When opening in Bridge I judge the amount of owrk to be done. If nothing to basic and I like the JPG I will use it, if I need to correct colour, exposure, denoise or do more advanced PS work, I have the DNG. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FeralCoton Posted November 14, 2015 Share #59 Posted November 14, 2015 I thought I'd try moving to the b/w jpg as Thorsten suggested. It works well, but Lightroom CC 2015.2.1 does not import both dng and jpg. In the import window it shows only jpg but imports only dng. I have the settings to treat companion jpg as a separate file. Anyone else have this problem? (I downgraded to the previous version of LR and it imports both). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted November 14, 2015 Share #60 Posted November 14, 2015 I thought I'd try moving to the b/w jpg as Thorsten suggested. It works well, but Lightroom CC 2015.2.1 does not import both dng and jpg. In the import window it shows only jpg but imports only dng. I have the settings to treat companion jpg as a separate file. Anyone else have this problem? (I downgraded to the previous version of LR and it imports both). I think there is setting in Lightroom to treat jpg as separate files. In Lightroom 5 the setting is in General preferences. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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