IkarusJohn Posted November 2, 2015 Share #61 Posted November 2, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) I remember that argument running in the 1970s and 1980s - you can't be critical of the Apartheid regime in South Africa if you haven't been there. Try running that argument about ISL! The SL is what it is. It may be too big, too heavy, too expensive or not have enough pixels for some (and that is not just opinion; it is also an expression of disappointment over what it isn't). Sure, people will express that disappointment. However, few people have had the camera at all, and even fewer have used it and tested it. Those voices add to the discussion - hearing more direct feedback over how the camera and lens perform against what Leica says is more interesting than baseless praise or pounding. More pounding than praise, from what I've seen - and pounding from some whose sole purpose is to put a little excitement into their lives in the most pointless fashion. Maybe I'm getting a little grumpy, like Pico. As a mediator, the one phrase I learned very early to avoid in dispute resolution - "there's fault on both sides"! No party to a dispute will agree to this sort of sophistry, and saying it only guarantees alienating both parties. What I'm holding out for is a clearer idea of how this camera performs, in terms of what it's intended to do. Cheers John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 2, 2015 Posted November 2, 2015 Hi IkarusJohn, Take a look here Enough is enough.. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
ramarren Posted November 2, 2015 Share #62 Posted November 2, 2015 I decided to jump in on one sight unseen, not because I believe it to be perfect or because I can afford to spring for every new product of the Red Dot, but because its concept is the concept I've been hoping for for some time, because I'm set up to put it to use in the fashion I want, and because the only way I'm going to know the truth of it is to take the risk and do it. In in the end, I know nothing's perfect and it will either please me—I'll adapt to it and figure how to adapt it to me—or it won't—at which point I'll bundle it up and take a small loss for the education. Most of the concrete issues I've read have been answered by simply reading the instruction manual. The issues based on aesthetics or philosophical prejudices cannot be answered. There's little I haven't been able to figure out from the concrete so I think I know the device as well as can be said without touching it yet. I'll get that chance on Friday. Hopefully it will not disappoint. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
biglou Posted November 2, 2015 Share #63 Posted November 2, 2015 " The SL is what it is. It may be too big, too heavy, too expensive or not have enough pixels for some (and that is not just opinion; it is also an expression of disappointment over what it isn't). Sure, people will express that disappointment. " ----------- Sure, And to all pretending a 24 mp sensor is enough, possibly even too much, why not reason the same way for lenses ? After all who needs the resolution and rendering of the Apo-Summicron 50mm ? Erwin Puts found it can resolve about 160 lpmm wide open and the best camera Leica offers can discriminate about 70-80 lpmm. This is really disapointing. Leica is building some of the finests lenses availiable but not the camera able to record their full potential. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted November 2, 2015 Share #64 Posted November 2, 2015 ...................... What I'm holding out for is a clearer idea of how this camera performs, in terms of what it's intended to do. Cheers John That's it in a nutshell. I'm not clear about what it's intended to do. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted November 2, 2015 Share #65 Posted November 2, 2015 I'm not clear about what it's intended to do. ???? I think what it is intended to do is quite clear. It is intended to be a versatile, FF platform for all of Leica's own lenses, including an embryo range of new AF/IS lenses. It is distinctive in having a classy EVF and an unusual and characteristic interface. Like any Leica product, it is expensive. It's a new camera for those people who are on the lookout for a new camera. For pros, the decision is simple: will this help me make money or not. For amateurs, it is more of a judgement call: do I need/want it for it for my photography, can I afford it and do I want to afford it. IMO its intentions are clear; any doubts have to be whether it fulfils those intentions for the individual. If you're not looking for a new camera, you don't have to worry. If you are - well that's the choice we always have to make. So many posts, so much angst. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted November 2, 2015 Share #66 Posted November 2, 2015 Well, let's take a look at the Leica website to remind ourselves what the SL is about; LEICA SL A vision of the future The Leica SL-System marks the beginning of a new era of professional photography. As the first mirrorless system camera of its kind, it offers an impressive range of innovative features and sets entirely new standards with regard to versatility and handling – and rugged resilience. It simultaneously offers maximum compatibility with the lenses of other Leica systems. Discover the future of photography – made in Germany. Discover the Leica SL-System. Actually that could be rather accurate, a 'vision' of the future, when there is a decent range of AF lenses for it The idea that professional photographers will be lining up to buy the SL to use with T, M or even R lenses is quite fanciful. Also they make much of the rugged weather sealed body - no good with T, M or R lenses which aren't weather sealed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted November 2, 2015 Share #67 Posted November 2, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) ???? I think what it is intended to do is quite clear. It is intended to be a versatile, FF platform for all of Leica's own lenses, including an embryo range of new AF/IS lenses. It is distinctive in having a classy EVF and an unusual and characteristic interface. Like any Leica product, it is expensive. It's a new camera for those people who are on the lookout for a new camera. .................. So many posts, so much angst. No doubt you're correct, but that's not quite what I meant. Never mind. Far from suffering angst, it's more a matter of exhaustion. Too many preconceptions for one thread. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodluvan Posted November 2, 2015 Share #68 Posted November 2, 2015 someone is taking this a little bit too personal. I'm sure you can find some other vanity product to splurge money on that wont cause you this grief, but the respect of your peers down at the gent's club Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted November 2, 2015 Share #69 Posted November 2, 2015 someone is taking this a little bit too personal. I'm sure you can find some other vanity product to splurge money on that wont cause you this grief, but the respect of your peers down at the gent's club ...and there goes another one... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted November 2, 2015 Share #70 Posted November 2, 2015 Well, let's take a look at the Leica website to remind ourselves what the SL is about; LEICA SL A vision of the future The Leica SL-System marks the beginning of a new era of professional photography. As the first mirrorless system camera of its kind, it offers an impressive range of innovative features and sets entirely new standards with regard to versatility and handling – and rugged resilience. It simultaneously offers maximum compatibility with the lenses of other Leica systems. Discover the future of photography – made in Germany. Discover the Leica SL-System. Actually that could be rather accurate, a 'vision' of the future, when there is a decent range of AF lenses for it The idea that professional photographers will be lining up to buy the SL to use with T, M or even R lenses is quite fanciful. Also they make much of the rugged weather sealed body - no good with T, M or R lenses which aren't weather sealed. Fanciful indeed. One can hardly presume that Leica aspires to compete with the Canon 1D series or similar. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted November 2, 2015 Share #71 Posted November 2, 2015 No doubt you're correct, but that's not quite what I meant. Never mind. Far from suffering angst, it's more a matter of exhaustion. Too many preconceptions for one thread. Peter, my comment about angst was certainly not directed at you - your posts are always a model of calm rationality Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted November 2, 2015 Share #72 Posted November 2, 2015 That's it in a nutshell. I'm not clear about what it's intended to do. Take pictures? Leica has an SLR autofocus system, but that is medium format and its longest lens is 180mm in 30x45 format, and it's really, really expensive ... In full frame, no autofocus and limited in its native optical viewfinder (practically) to 28-90 without adding viewfinders ... The new camera fills a gap - not one that interests many, perhaps, but it is a gap. Of course, it does so in a way which many don't like (bigger than they like, heavier, uglier, more expensive etc), but I suspect that's just the way it is. I suppose people loved the first 911 (I don't recall), but the Porsche aficionados hated the Cayenne and the Panamera, and both have been hugely profitable, enabling the company to continue to make beautiful (but unaffordable) 911s. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheshireCat Posted November 2, 2015 Share #73 Posted November 2, 2015 As the first mirrorless system camera of its kind What does this mean ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
biglou Posted November 2, 2015 Share #74 Posted November 2, 2015 It means we are all unique, this is the message. Otherwise there are plenty of mirrorless cameras already and i did not yet found what this one brings the others don't (except the design) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted November 2, 2015 Share #75 Posted November 2, 2015 It is presumably the best digital camera for R lenses, the best non-M camera for M lenses and the very best camera for SL lenses so far . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted November 2, 2015 Share #76 Posted November 2, 2015 " The SL is what it is. It may be too big, too heavy, too expensive or not have enough pixels for some (and that is not just opinion; it is also an expression of disappointment over what it isn't). Sure, people will express that disappointment. " ----------- Sure, And to all pretending a 24 mp sensor is enough, possibly even too much, why not reason the same way for lenses ? After all who needs the resolution and rendering of the Apo-Summicron 50mm ? Erwin Puts found it can resolve about 160 lpmm wide open and the best camera Leica offers can discriminate about 70-80 lpmm. This is really disapointing. Leica is building some of the finests lenses availiable but not the camera able to record their full potential. I can't say I have ever looked at a picture (printed or otherwise) and thought to myself - "Gee, I wish the sensor could handle 160lpmm" or any other technological limitation. What I do have is an uncropped image hanging above my dining table, printed by Whitewall, a metre or so across the long side, taken with a "meagre" 18MP Monochrom and Mandler era 75 Summilux made in 2005. The resolution is fantastic. As many here have said, such is the quality of modern digital cameras (and these Leicas are modern digital cameras) that the limitation for me is not my equipment - it is time, and lack of skill and talent. Why do Leicas cost so much by comparison? Conceived, designed and (to a degree made or at least assembled and quality checked) in Germany to the best standard Leica can manage for the chosen technology (and greed, if you like - I'm not so sure). Here's another way to look at it. I believe Leica is actually aware that Sony and Canon make handheld "prosumer" cameras using 50MP sensors. That is the core issue, right? I also have no doubt that if they wanted to use such a sensor in the S, the M or the SL, they could have. Sony and Canon don't have exclusive rights to this technology, and Sony runs a business selling this tech to others. I can think of no reason why Sony would sell their top sensors to Nikon and not to Leica. So, let's just assume (for argument's sake) that having "only" a 37.5MP sensor in their latest, biggest and best camera (the S(007)) wasn't an oversight. My guess is, a balance of pixel size (the pixels on the M, SL & S are the same size presumably for good reason), resolution,lens size and performance, image quality and usability handheld. It's also worth remembering that 24MP to 50MP is not, actually, double the resolution. It Leica then builds a camera around that sensor, what do they need to add to warrant the superlative (hubristic) claims? Working backwards, a better processor than the Maestro; the best available EVF; if you're going to do video, then at least do it properly; and the best AF lenses. Now, we get to the next bit - the camera uses in-camera optical corrections (the crime of the century, it seems). Now here's some breaking news from, oh at least Pierre Angénieux in the mid 1950s, zoom lenses for 35mm are complicated and compromised compared to their fixed focal length prime cousins. Surely, what matters is haptics (how nice is the camera to use and operate - too heavy? horrible menu system, too small - then forget it) and image quality. Provided the image quality warrants other compromises, then I must confess I don't much give a toss how the image got there. I have no romanticism about working in the dark with horrible smelling chemicals, or about sitting in from top a computer (though I know which I will tolerate doing more). If the image isn't worth the effort, then it's a dud. I like the way Leica does things; I'm not kept awake counting pixels, lpmm or MTF charts - I do, though, think I might be stupid spending this much money and that can keep me awake ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NZDavid Posted November 2, 2015 Share #77 Posted November 2, 2015 In this case I don't think the SL is all about IQ, as important as that is. Nor is it about the latest whizzbang features. It's about ruggedness. That matters for pros. It also contributes to the high sticker price. I like Sean Reid's assessment on Luminous Landscape: https://luminous-landscape.com/some-thoughts-on-the-leica-sl/ I agree with Sean that the term "mirrorless" is pretty meaningless. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott kirkpatrick Posted November 2, 2015 Share #78 Posted November 2, 2015 I also don't see 24 MPx as any limitation. I recently had a slightly cropped M[240]/uncoded 135/3.4 shot printed for a lobby wall at 120 cm width, 300 dpi (yes, upressed by just setting the CaptureOne output ratio to a little over 2,0). It looks great, and can be inspected at nose-bumping distance. I have cameras with 39 MPx, but older MF lenses, and can stitch panos if it were required, but 24 MPx did the job. scott Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted November 2, 2015 Share #79 Posted November 2, 2015 Fanciful indeed. One can hardly presume that Leica aspires to compete with the Canon 1D series or similar. Actually..... I run a 1DS3 myself and they are rarely plentiful on the used market. I wonder just how many are sold? And FWIW I know very few pro photographers actually using 1D series cameras these days - there are many, cheaper and equally competent cameras available from Canon which have more appeal - especially in terms of cost and life expectancy. I'd say that you would need to have to shoot a lot of photos to make one really worth considering. Not that I'm suggesting that Leica will aspire to compete with the 1D series with the SL, but rather to suggest that all these 'high end' cameras may not sell in vast numbers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
biglou Posted November 2, 2015 Share #80 Posted November 2, 2015 " Here's another way to look at it. I believe Leica is actually aware that Sony and Canon make handheld "prosumer" cameras using 50MP sensors. That is the core issue, right? I also have no doubt that if they wanted to use such a sensor in the S, the M or the SL, they could have. Sony and Canon don't have exclusive rights to this technology, and Sony runs a business selling this tech to others. I can think of no reason why Sony would sell their top sensors to Nikon and not to Leica. " I have no answer, fact is Leica did not buy sensors from Sony and the reason is not, it seems, that Sony sensors are not good enough... Part of the answer is Leica needed custom sensors in order to accomodate M lenses and Sony would not bother to provide them so Leica had to get access to smaller providers able to comply but probably not with the latest technology. Sony is now a global leader in that domain. Now i am well aware that pixel count does not make up for talent or that a low resolution picture can eventually be enlarged a lot, depends on the content. In another domain i saw simple and small drawings, few lines on paper conveying a lot more including a sense of huge perspective and space, much more so than other full of details and realistic renderings. This is not what we are debating. My point is that the new sensor technology does not, for now, allow the full potential of the lenses. You have a print more than 1 meter wide, fine, but do you recall projections of the old kodachrome 25 ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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