psss Posted November 2, 2015 Share #81 Posted November 2, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) Sony is not selling their top sensors to nikon anymore...they did with the D800 and D810 and that agreement ran out...i am sure at this point sony will sell all sensors to anyone who wants them....after a certain timeframe to make sure their sony top models come out first and sell first of course.... sony does have the best sensor tech by far.....for any application....and not only sensor tech.....first built in variable ND (FS5) built in variable OLPF (RX1RII)....IBIS....they are pushing tech in all directions....and they are not afraid to try things....A7s(II) nobody else would dare to come out with a lower mpix and most expensive body.....they did, it paid off.... if leica wanted to buy sensors from sony, maybe they could, with Leica's margins they could easily get custom versions....maybe the volume would be too low for sony? either way, it does not matter because leica needs to NOT have a sony sensor to keep the idea of doing it's own thing, creating it's own mojo.....imagine what the discussions would be like if there was the same sensor in the A7II and the SL? it would be even harder to justify the difference in price! anyway: leica really should have put IBIS in the SL...price can't be the issue, the tech is mature, they really should have done it..... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 2, 2015 Posted November 2, 2015 Hi psss, Take a look here Enough is enough.. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
CheshireCat Posted November 2, 2015 Share #82 Posted November 2, 2015 I believe Leica is actually aware that Sony and Canon make handheld "prosumer" cameras using 50MP sensors. That is the core issue, right? I also have no doubt that if they wanted to use such a sensor in the S, the M or the SL, they could have. The problem here is that there is not only the sensor: the sensor needs to be interfaced with a system that can handle 50 MP. Where "interface" means not only hardware issues, but software as well. Keeping the peace with technology is harder and harder every year, and Leica is still running to catch the digital photography train... ... not fast enough. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted November 2, 2015 Share #83 Posted November 2, 2015 .............. If the image isn't worth the effort, then it's a dud. I like the way Leica does things; I'm not kept awake counting pixels, lpmm or MTF charts - I do, though, think I might be stupid spending this much money and that can keep me awake ... I agree with almost all of your post that i've only snipped to save space. I'd like to understand the decision to put stabilisation in the lenses but not the body. Nikon explain that building IS into their lenses enables them to optimise the IS characteristics according to the specifics of each lens, which probably has some merit. But I can imagine that, in a "no compromise" camera that must depend to a degree on its compatibility with older MF lenses, a switch-offable IBIS would have added huge value and increased its appeal significantly. And it wouldn't have prevented them from building IS-equipped lenses, if that really was a priority. It would be interesting if anyone understands the decision, if they could explain it. Thanks. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheshireCat Posted November 2, 2015 Share #84 Posted November 2, 2015 I'd like to understand the decision to put stabilisation in the lenses but not the body. The "decision" is probably a matter of cost, time, and patents... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted November 2, 2015 Share #85 Posted November 2, 2015 Sony is not selling their top sensors to nikon anymore...they did with the D800 and D810 and that agreement ran out...i am sure at this point sony will sell all sensors to anyone who wants them....after a certain timeframe to make sure their sony top models come out first and sell first of course.... sony does have the best sensor tech by far.....for any application....and not only sensor tech.....first built in variable ND (FS5) built in variable OLPF (RX1RII)....IBIS....they are pushing tech in all directions....and they are not afraid to try things....A7s(II) nobody else would dare to come out with a lower mpix and most expensive body.....they did, it paid off.... if leica wanted to buy sensors from sony, maybe they could, with Leica's margins they could easily get custom versions....maybe the volume would be too low for sony? either way, it does not matter because leica needs to NOT have a sony sensor to keep the idea of doing it's own thing, creating it's own mojo.....imagine what the discussions would be like if there was the same sensor in the A7II and the SL? it would be even harder to justify the difference in price! anyway: leica really should have put IBIS in the SL...price can't be the issue, the tech is mature, they really should have done it..... Actually Leica has bought various sensors from Sony over the years. However, Sony not being able to supply the microprism configurations that Leica requires for their M lenses, Leica was forced to look/have their sensors developed elsewhere. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted November 3, 2015 Share #86 Posted November 3, 2015 I agree with almost all of your post that i've only snipped to save space. I'd like to understand the decision to put stabilisation in the lenses but not the body. Nikon explain that building IS into their lenses enables them to optimise the IS characteristics according to the specifics of each lens, which probably has some merit. But I can imagine that, in a "no compromise" camera that must depend to a degree on its compatibility with older MF lenses, a switch-offable IBIS would have added huge value and increased its appeal significantly. And it wouldn't have prevented them from building IS-equipped lenses, if that really was a priority. It would be interesting if anyone understands the decision, if they could explain it. Thanks. That's a technical question we could only guess at - I'm not aware anyone has asked Leica, and I wouldn't like to guess at the answer. Image stabilisation seems to be specific to modern AF lenses - I don't know if that is an issue - but there also seems to be very definite image degradation if you don't need to use it (hence the recommendation that it is switched off when using a tripod). One consideration may have been that M and R lenses were designed and used at a time when image stabilisation was not on offer, so Leica decided to retain that level of purity. I'm not sure that I would use stabilisation with an M lens, and the only R lens I have (just arrived) is 180mm, which I am comfortable holding in my hand. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rramesh Posted November 3, 2015 Share #87 Posted November 3, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) "Chewie, can you use it?" "RRRAAARGGGHHH!". 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
psss Posted November 3, 2015 Share #88 Posted November 3, 2015 Actually Leica has bought various sensors from Sony over the years. However, Sony not being able to supply the microprism configurations that Leica requires for their M lenses, Leica was forced to look/have their sensors developed elsewhere. when did leica use a sony sensor? which camera? sony can build anything, but the question is if leica can order enough custom sensors.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted November 3, 2015 Share #89 Posted November 3, 2015 when did leica use a sony sensor? which camera? sony can build anything, but the question is if leica can order enough custom sensors.... The T and X cameras. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted November 3, 2015 Share #90 Posted November 3, 2015 (edited) That's a technical question we could only guess at - I'm not aware anyone has asked Leica, and I wouldn't like to guess at the answer. Image stabilisation seems to be specific to modern AF lenses - I don't know if that is an issue - but there also seems to be very definite image degradation if you don't need to use it (hence the recommendation that it is switched off when using a tripod). One consideration may have been that M and R lenses were designed and used at a time when image stabilisation was not on offer, so Leica decided to retain that level of purity. I'm not sure that I would use stabilisation with an M lens, and the only R lens I have (just arrived) is 180mm, which I am comfortable holding in my hand. Hi John, I use IBIS with my M and R lenses all the time with beneficial effects. For example, IBIS gives you a stabilized image when manually focusing. Also, I did tests with the A7r2 on a tripod. Sony's version of IBIS seems smart enough to sense that and not f*ck it up. On a tripod several folks have found that there is no difference if IBIS is On or Off. Of course, Sony recommends to switch it Off when using a tripod. Of course, the big advantage is when shooting non-moving objects at very slow shutter speeds. I did that handheld for the super harvest blood moon. Even the stars in the neighborhood of the Moon are pretty sharp and almost circular in appearance. Edited November 3, 2015 by k-hawinkler 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted November 3, 2015 Share #91 Posted November 3, 2015 (edited) I have not, as yet, got my head around lunar and astro photography - I don't mean through a telescope, but just if the night sky. Pico posted a link to a useful guide some time ago - if you want to freeze motion, 500 by the focal length, if I recall correctly. So, for a 28mm, that's 17.86 seconds, and for a 50, 10 seconds etc. What I haven't yet worked out (okay, I haven't tried and haven't thought about it at all) is the best ISO and f stop. I appreciate that may sound like a dumb question, but what do you critically use? I tried photographing the moon with my d810e and zoom set to 400mm - I soon realised that getting a clear and steady image was more problematic than I thought, my initial efforts were over-exposed, and I needed to crop to get any sort of image. The results weren't worth the effort, or to put it another way I have to give it some careful thought which I never really got around to before I sold the camera. Cheers John Edited November 3, 2015 by IkarusJohn 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted November 3, 2015 Share #92 Posted November 3, 2015 I have not, as yet, got my head around lunar and astro photography - I don't mean through a telescope, but just if the night sky. Pico posted a link to a useful guide some time ago - if you want to freeze motion, 500 by the focal length, if I recall correctly. So, for a 28mm, that's 17.86 seconds, and for a 50, 10 seconds etc. What I haven't yet worked out (okay, I haven't tried and haven't thought about it at all) is the best ISO and f stop. I appreciate that may sound like a dumb question, but what do you critically use? I tried photographing the moon with my d810e and zoom set to 400mm - I soon realised that getting a clear and steady image was more problematic than I thought, my initial efforts were over-exposed, and I needed to crop to get any sort of image. The results weren't worth the effort, or to put it another way I have to give it some careful thought which I never really got around to before I sold the camera. Cheers John Thanks John. I don't know about pico's link. Here is my shot. Sony A7r2 + FE 90/2.8 @ ISO 3200, f/2.8, 1/5 s, handheld, manual exposure, but AF. The trick on the A7r2 is to set Live View Display / Setting Effect to Off. That way one gets the amplification of Live View and can see even faint stars. 7 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted November 3, 2015 Share #93 Posted November 3, 2015 Lovely! Impressive at 1/5s. How much did you crop? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted November 3, 2015 Share #94 Posted November 3, 2015 (edited) Lovely! Impressive at 1/5s. How much did you crop? Thanks John. In that image you see the innermost 1988x1988 pixels. The following is an uncropped image at 25% resolution. Edited November 3, 2015 by k-hawinkler 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheshireCat Posted November 3, 2015 Share #95 Posted November 3, 2015 Nice example of one of the many reasons megapixels are useful. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted November 3, 2015 Share #96 Posted November 3, 2015 Nice example of one of the many reasons megapixels are useful. Thank you. I agree. Also, before IBIS I had to use a tripod for these kinds of shots. Of course, to get a better image I still do. But IBIS makes these rather casual shots possible. Very convenient by comparison, in particular if the Moon is pretty high in the sky. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted November 3, 2015 Share #97 Posted November 3, 2015 I agree with almost all of your post that i've only snipped to save space. I'd like to understand the decision to put stabilisation in the lenses but not the body. Nikon explain that building IS into their lenses enables them to optimise the IS characteristics according to the specifics of each lens, which probably has some merit. But I can imagine that, in a "no compromise" camera that must depend to a degree on its compatibility with older MF lenses, a switch-offable IBIS would have added huge value and increased its appeal significantly. And it wouldn't have prevented them from building IS-equipped lenses, if that really was a priority. It would be interesting if anyone understands the decision, if they could explain it. Thanks. Just talked about this pretty extensively in the other SL long thread. In a nutshell, the SL's video capabilities, the better thermal and positioning stability of a fixed sensor, never mind the per-lens optimization of a good OIS system, were probably the deciding factors. IBIS really does work better with smaller format sensors where the lower sensor mass is easier to control. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted November 3, 2015 Share #98 Posted November 3, 2015 Nice example of one of the many reasons megapixels are useful. I'd make the same shot with the M240 (or SL when it arrives) using a 180 or 250 mm lens and a sturdy tripod. That will render the Moon as a much larger disc onto the FF format. Less cropping, better detailing and dynamic range, maybe a few more Mpixels of actual image area, etc. Good of that you can get that much out of a 90mm lens but for real quality with Moon studies you need more magnification. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted November 3, 2015 Share #99 Posted November 3, 2015 I'd make the same shot with the M240 (or SL when it arrives) using a 180 or 250 mm lens and a sturdy tripod. That will render the Moon as a much larger disc onto the FF format. Less cropping, better detailing and dynamic range, maybe a few more Mpixels of actual image area, etc. Good of that you can get that much out of a 90mm lens but for real quality with Moon studies you need more magnification. Yup, you are right. So what! I have been there, done it, got the T-shirt, used the APO-Telyt-R 280/4 with APO-Extender-R 1.4x or 2x or both on a very sturdy tripod and a higher resolution camera than the M240. That gives a bit more detail than the setup you have described! My point here was a bit different, namely capturing the stars around the Moon which you don't get to see when the Moon is bright. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted November 3, 2015 Share #100 Posted November 3, 2015 Nice example of one of the many reasons megapixels are useful. Nice example of why one should use a really long lens for a moon shot,,,, Horses for courses. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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