FlashGordonPhotography Posted February 3, 2016 Share #581 Posted February 3, 2016 Advertisement (gone after registration) (6) It's a fine camera - 100% agree, it's a very fine camera BUT it's not nor never will be the DSLR replacement that some are pretending it to be. Fuji mirrorless and Sony mirrorless cameras aren't either. A professional news camera has to be a JACK OF ALL TRADES ie. feature in the morning - news job in the afternoon - football match at night. A DSLR can do this the SL cannot and for that reason the SL as it is will never break into the Can/Nik DSLR market. Isn't photojournalism the fastest shrinking portion of the professional photography environment? Publications continue to close and staff are being reduced in massive numbers all over the world. Photos from iPhones are being printed in the mainstream media because it's cheaper for a newspaper to steal an image from someone's Facebook account than pay a photographer to be there. There will always be a few specialist sports guys but the "domestic" market is massively bigger than the jouno market or even the commercial market. For every working photo journalist or sports photographer there must be a hundred wedding and portrait photographers. Just like Leica Canon and Nikon market their "professional" cameras to an ever shrinking market of working photographers, knowing that their really selling to well heeled amateurs who like the idea of shooting a "pro" camera. The actual "pro' market are shooting 5 series instead of 1 series, mostly because mo one in their right mind wants to schlep around more gear than they need. The 21st century "pro" is more likely to shoot a baby shoot on Monday, a portrait session Thursday and a wedding on Saturday afternoon than they are a football match. It's a lovely nostalgic thought to think that photo journalism and sports photographers are the mainstream working photographer but that's just not the case. And with 4K coming to broadcast TV in the next few years the'll just rip 8MP still from the video files and all the sports shooters will be shooting weddings and baby showers. I think Leica is planning for the next 5 years, as they see it. As someone said, Canon need to look at companies like Nokia or even Kodak and get it together because the 1Dx2 and D5 are almost end of line products for the "mainstream' pro mostly because the mainstream pro is a different animal to 5 years ago. Times are a changing' and we're just going to have to hang on for the ride. Gordon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 3, 2016 Posted February 3, 2016 Hi FlashGordonPhotography, Take a look here Leica SL (Typ 601) - Mirrorless System Camera Without Compromise. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
dkCambridgeshire Posted February 5, 2016 Share #582 Posted February 5, 2016 I'll still eat one live on this forum if it succeeds as a pro camera in any guise. Nice toy for Leicaphiles but that's about it - sorry. Have you looked at online publications Gordon - often with 100+ images for a major news event. Just because print is shrinking doesn't mean that there is no market for images. Most Leica enthusiasts are aware that Messrs. Canon, Nikon, Sony et al are not going to lose much sleep regarding the 'new kid on the block' Leica SL. However, for some professional photographers it is the Leica camera they've needed for a long time - and in that respect it does succeed as a professional tool - albeit not in the production volumes expected of a non-Leica FF ICL camera. Nice toy? Hardly a toy - it's innovative and capable - and will be more capable still when the promised additional lenses and accessories are available. The 'professional camera market' includes the needs of those other than the sports and news hounds. The SL will likely sell in the anticipated but relatively small volumes expected by Leica Camera AG dunk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkCambridgeshire Posted February 5, 2016 Share #583 Posted February 5, 2016 Hope it does sell well Dunk - I like many have a big stake in Leica and want them to do well. The thing is though Dunk that Leica are marketing the camera to take on Can/Nik - I might be wrong of course in this but that was the intention when it was launched by Leica. Can/Nik are for the most part used by photojournalists and at the moment as it is, the SL for all it's a good camera won't ever be able to compete at this level. … To 'sort of' quote Mandy Rice-Davies … "Well they would do that … wouldn't they!" It's marketing 'speak'. They're hardly likely to say it's just/only a niche market product. And comparisons with Fuji are not really relevant - until Fuji market a 24mmx36mm FF digital camera. dunk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted February 5, 2016 Share #584 Posted February 5, 2016 I can't see any existing pro photographers dropping their Canon or Nikon systems for an SL and one kit zoom lens. Who would do that? Even if said pro only needed a 24-90 zoom, what does the SL do that a Canon or Nikon can't? (don't say take M lenses). If a pro has decided to use an M system why would they use an SL instead of an M? Let's assume that their eyesight is good enough to use a rangefinder etc. It seems the appeal for the SL (and from the threads on the forum from those who've bought an SL) is existing M users who just fancy a new gadget (nothing wrong in that) and those who are struggling with the rangefinder to focus and feel the EVF plus option to use an AF lens is a good solution for them. For anyone not interested in M lenses, as it stands it's really just a very expensive FF version of the X Vario. Maybe at some point in the future - and as it's Leica we're probably talking 5-10 years - the SL will be a fully supported system with a wide range of AF lenses. Leica said they wouldn't try to compete with Canon/Nikon when they decided to drop the R line. I'm not sure what convinced them to change their mind. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted February 5, 2016 Share #585 Posted February 5, 2016 I'm not interested by the SL for now and i will probably never be unless one of us changes deeply, but assuming that it sells well enough to survive (?), it is probably one of the best if not the best digital back for R lenses so far and with a couple more AF lenses i don't see why it could not interest some pro photographers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted February 5, 2016 Share #586 Posted February 5, 2016 blah blah blah blah blah blah blah ... Sheesh, if you feel the camera is a piece of junk, why go on so about it? I could not care less about a "wide range of AF lenses" in whatever amount of time. I have a very very complete system of R lenses that work superbly on the SL. I'm sure that Leica will fill out the lens line for the SL over time, it's just not important to my professional use. And my Nikon and Olympus gear is up for sale. This is the camera that will earn my photographic pay for the foreseeable future. (I already sold the Sony stuff.) Is it "professional"? I couldn't care less. It makes the photos I want, in the way I want, and produces better output for me than my Nikon, Olympus, Canon, Panasonic, and Sony cameras did. I never bought into the Fuji stuff: it never worked for me at all. (I have a lovely Leica M-P as well, which I'm keeping. It's not a professional camera either, I guess, but that said I've made quite a bit of money selling photos I've made with it. It couldn't replace the other systems as above as it isn't quite versatile enough for what I do with a camera, but I like shooting with it too. The SL is a better professional choice, however, regardless of whether some AF dependent, machine-gun-exposure-rattling sports reporter or photojournalist uses it.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkCambridgeshire Posted February 5, 2016 Share #587 Posted February 5, 2016 Advertisement (gone after registration) Most commentators appear to be forgetting that although Leica dropped the R system years ago there was always a possibility of at least a partial R solution being available. When the M240 was announced at Photokina, Stefan Daniel said in an interview with Thorsten Overgaard. "I never said sell your R lenses … " The hint was there that not only the M 240 but maybe another Leica camera would be R compatible. And given that a mirrorless ICL Leica was likely then why not FF? For Leica not to have made the SL camera as an R & M compatible platform would have provoked even more criticism. Let's be thankful for what we have and it's utilitarianism - regardless of whether or not it's a contender as a Canon/Nikon competitor. If it sells in sufficient numbers it will be a success … even though the naysayers will likely continue their criticisms … and continue their praises of their transient Canon / Nikon / Sony offerings. dunk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted February 5, 2016 Share #588 Posted February 5, 2016 blah blah blah blah blah blah blah ... I could not care less about a "wide range of AF lenses" in whatever amount of time. I have a very very complete system of R lenses that work superbly on the SL. As I said, it will mostly appeal to existing Leica users (as opposed to bringing in new/new customers). Thank you for confirming my thoughts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted February 5, 2016 Share #589 Posted February 5, 2016 As I said, it will mostly appeal to existing Leica users (as opposed to bringing in new/new customers). Thank you for confirming my thoughts. Why do you care? As long as it makes the profit that Leica requires to offset its cost of development and manufacture, and fund new development, the audience buying it is not important. Of course it will sell first to those have an immediate need. It will sell later with a larger dedicated lens line to new customers. Its the the same for every manufacturer ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted February 5, 2016 Share #590 Posted February 5, 2016 I've run into one feature I detest and I'm hoping there's a way around it: the automatic viewfinder brightness default. It simply does not work for me. For me one of the huge advantages of an EVF is the live histogram and exposure feedback. The automatic viewfinder brightness default defeats this advantage. Is there a way to make the exposure preview mode the default? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted February 5, 2016 Share #591 Posted February 5, 2016 I've run into one feature I detest and I'm hoping there's a way around it: the automatic viewfinder brightness default. It simply does not work for me. For me one of the huge advantages of an EVF is the live histogram and exposure feedback. The automatic viewfinder brightness default defeats this advantage. Is there a way to make the exposure preview mode the default? Preview mode is on whenever you half press the shutter release. You can enable it on a frame by frame basis when you give the FN button two short presses, and you can disable it entirely by turning it off in the Camera menu. There is no option to enable it full time at present. I don't know why you would want that: having the viewfinder bright while you're focusing is a useful thing... ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted February 5, 2016 Share #592 Posted February 5, 2016 Ramarren - This is a discussion forum that's what this is a discussion. It's Leica not me or anyone else who set this camera up as a Can/Nik competitor. Can/Nik cameras are predominately used by photojournalists. The SL will not be used by photojournalists as long as it's got a hole to put a lens in. Can/Nik cameras are not transient at all - you sold yours I definitely won't be selling mine. It's all fanboy poo poo to pretend that the SL is the best thing since the coming of digital - it's a good camera BUT it is not in anyway "Mirrorless camera without compromise" which being the title of this thread is clearly complete nonsense. With regards to Leica cameras I am in no way a "naysayer" I actually own rather a lot of them and use a fair few for my own professional use indeed having shot a few national newspaper stories on them I actually do think that maybe I am a bit qualified to express my own thoughts on the SL - is that OK with you? Okay: so you want to argue endlessly over some marketing snurd's use of hyperbole in the release advertising. And call other owners "fan boys" with all the disparaging tone that implies because THE CAMERA WORKS EXTREMELY WELL FOR THEM. What condescension! That's just bullshit. How many times do you have to "express your opinion" rather than discuss useful things? I don't care how experienced you are or how much money you have in Leica cameras, or whether you won the Pulitzer prize. My question is "How many times do you have to say 'I don't agree with this marketing person's pap!' before you think you've made your point to all and sundry?" I know what your position is, give it a f&Sking rest, ok? Bleck. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted February 5, 2016 Share #593 Posted February 5, 2016 Likewise, chill out and enjoy your camera—whatever it might be. Make photographs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted February 5, 2016 Share #594 Posted February 5, 2016 I think you rather overstate your case, Paul. A camera of this size and aspiration really only has Canon and Nikon users in its sights. Would it appeal to photojournalists? Probably not - too many early product wrinkles, not enough lenses and too expensive. Does that mean it should not be pitched at the professional end of the product market? Of course not. Leica were never going to market this as a half baked new system with one lens for rich fondlers, and I doubt that's what they want. You have lots of Leicas, but I'd argue you are the traditional exception. As more photojournalists get laid off, the justification for buying the latest Nikon must be getting thin. I'm sure a cheaper Fuji makes a lot more economic sense. I don't think you can really say "Professional" in the marketing only means Photojournalist, means this will never be a success; unless you just don't want it to succeed ... i think we all know that Professional without compromise is not to be taken any more seriously than D5 - In each millisecond a masterpiece, or the ultimate shot made possible by Canon's ultimate technologies. I gave up reading or believing this crap when I was about 9. Your central complaint seems to be price and only one lens. True. I doubt any professional of any stripe is going to sell a complete and mature Canon and Nikon system for one camera and lens at that cost, unless ... they already have R and M lenses. In this market, I'd be amazed if Canon, Nikon or Sony could produce a new system and full wardrobe of lenses overnight. This is Leica. Even M lenses trickle out. I have no figures, but I understand the S system has sold way better than Leica anticipated, despite Leica's failure to deliver promised lenses. Has Leica stolen a march on mirror less technology? I think they have, and Canon and Nikon will be watching very closely - will they rush in? I doubt it. They sell many many more cameras than Leica - they can watch and wait, but long term, the dSLR might have problems. The SL will be very successful. Now, if Leica can't justify its professional claim, how sincere was your offer to eat an SL live on the forum? That wasn't hubris, was it? Of course, if that comes to pass, we will argue the definition of success, and you'll say it never caught on with PJs - but it just might sell lots to people who don't want a consumer level product, and probably to many who make a living from photography. Not sure how many full time PJs will be about then ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steppenw0lf Posted February 5, 2016 Share #595 Posted February 5, 2016 As I said, it will mostly appeal to existing Leica users (as opposed to bringing in new/new customers). Thank you for confirming my thoughts. Hi there, I still have my all my R lenses from the 80's and 90's and the Ms. But since 2000 (time of Fuji Pro with Nikon bayonet) I have not been shooting with them anymore. Does that make me an "existing" Leica user ? I would rather call me a Nikon user and Canon user because I have been using both systems (mainly Nikon) since then. (15 years) And just recently have I had the chance to revive the R system. So I can now switch back and have suddenly everything in one bag: R and M and I can add the long Nikons and Canons if I really need to (actually I do not). But more interesting is that I can also add much older stuff like M42 (Trioplan etc.), some exotic pentax lenses etc. Things I always thought were unreachable for digital. This offering was so attractive to me that I bought the SL despite its crazy prize and even though I do not like the company Leica anymore (with its M hype and hybris, with its continued attempt to wipe out the R system and with its foolish marketing (they put more value to the Hermes leather accessories than to an affordable range of "bread and butter" lenses like Zeiss ZM)) So I am the living proof of somebody changing after 15 years of japanese equipment back to Leica stuff. So you see I even had Fuji once, but found it not appealing during the last few years. Canon and Nikon was simply far better. I am also not a "typical" M user who sells regularly all his old lenses because he keeps only the latest apo lux craze (and complains later that unfortunately he cannot make comparisons anymore) . I also keep my old M lenses and if I have to be ready for a safari or antarctica trip I can choose from old lenses that are not so valuable and also much smaller and lighter than the latest craze. And I found the quality of the old equipment more than good enough (and regarding prize much better value). Summary: I am a Jap Cam user who has switched back to Leica SL, but not because of the marketing hype that was here discussed ad nauseam. You might say that I was a Leitz (not Leica) user (who was converted by force to Nikon and Canon) and who has now been "ressurrected" after 15 years, or whatever you want to name it, by the SL opportunity. (what a picture: body found after 15 years (maybe in a glacier), and reanimated by the local paramedics). (sounds a bit like Frankenstein) Stephan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkCambridgeshire Posted February 5, 2016 Share #596 Posted February 5, 2016 Just been looking at a well known UK professional camera rental website … and you'd never guess which latest Leica FF MILC they have for hire But expect they (more than one available!!) would only be rented by well heeled amateurs trying to make an impression. Also … just so happens I have an 800mm Leica lens (longer than a 600mm !) … also have 2x and 1.4x extenders thus potential 1600mm FF … and have access to an SL … thus am considering using the combination for a "newsworthy event" … which probably guaranteed to be published in a well known journal together with pics of me using the camera/lens. So … wondering how much a large chocolate and raspberry Leica SL cake might cost dunk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted February 5, 2016 Share #597 Posted February 5, 2016 Preview mode is on whenever you half press the shutter release. You can enable it on a frame by frame basis when you give the FN button two short presses, and you can disable it entirely by turning it off in the Camera menu. There is no option to enable it full time at present. I don't know why you would want that: having the viewfinder bright while you're focusing is a useful thing... ? If the critter is in front of a bright background the thing I'm focusing on is definitely not bright. Enabling exposure preview between exposures is much too cumbersome for a quick-moving animal. This feature is a deal breaker for me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanJW Posted February 5, 2016 Share #598 Posted February 5, 2016 If the critter is in front of a bright background the thing I'm focusing on is definitely not bright. Enabling exposure preview between exposures is much too cumbersome for a quick-moving animal. This feature is a deal breaker for me. I'm not sure I understand this. Conventional DSLRs do not show exposure preview. If that is the way you prefer to work, you can turn it off on the SL. Or are you saying you prefer it on all the time? I am assuming you are in M mode because it hardly makes a difference in A mode. When I have a subject like that I will meter in spot mode anyhow. I am just trying to understand because I have seen your work, which is spectacular, and would like to better understand your methodology. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thighslapper Posted February 5, 2016 Share #599 Posted February 5, 2016 I would point out that it would be a disaster if the SL was a huge success and snapped up by every 'professional' photographer ditching Canon/Nikon Leica just do not have the production facilities to make gazillions of these ...... despite what the rather rather syrupy sales blurb says it is for a relatively small niche market and clearly aimed more at the existing Leica user with a cupboard full of lenses and a hankering for a bit of AF. Frankly I'd like to keep it that way ...... getting hold of Leica gear is difficult enough as it is, and I quite like being the 'odd one out' when I'm in company with my photo gear ..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thighslapper Posted February 5, 2016 Share #600 Posted February 5, 2016 I'm not sure I understand this. Conventional DSLRs do not show exposure preview. If that is the way you prefer to work, you can turn it off on the SL. Or are you saying you prefer it on all the time? I am assuming you are in M mode because it hardly makes a difference in A mode. When I have a subject like that I will meter in spot mode anyhow. I am just trying to understand because I have seen your work, which is spectacular, and would like to better understand your methodology. I'm also a bit confused ....... using 'A' any exposure compensation shows shows in the EVF image ...... .... and as you say spot metering works well and often tiny shifts of the metering point gives you the result you want ..... There is clearly more than 1 way to skin a cat so I'd also be interested in what our friend Douglas gets up to to produce his great images ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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