Leica SL (Typ 601) - Mirrorless System Camera Without Compromise

[ramarren]

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I'm wondering about the R Adapter. It might have:

 

- electronic contacts, to tell the SL body what lens is attached and which profile to use

- a set aperture sensor, so the electronic contacts can transmit this to the SL for exif data

- an aperture actuation device that closes the aperture for the shot.

 

The first two points make sense and should be easy enough to implement. But what about the third point? Given that M lenses would be used stopped down, is there any issue with using R lenses that way? It would provide a constant picture preview. It would allow for higher frames per second.

 

What am I missing?  Thanks.  

 

 

Stop down focussing is less accurate and requires focus magnification with wides and standard lenses mainly. I have no experience with the SL601 though.

 

 

We have to look at the T-M adapter, which exists, and the functions that the SL executes with T lenses.  The T-M adapter has electrical contacts and IR sensors so that it can transmit the M 6-bit code to identify the M lens in use.  Will it transmit the identity of a ROM-equipped R lens to the SL?  That sounds well within the range of possibilities to me.  A 3-cam lens?  Dunno.

 

Then, we can ask if the SL with a T lens installed stops down the lens  well before the shot, at the half-press, or ...?  That's a question that can only be answered in a Leica store, I am afraid. If the SL doesn't even have the concept of Aperture stop-down, we are out of luck, but I suspect that it does know about these things.  Finally can the camera activate some mechanical action that the adapter makes on the R lens to cause the stop-down.  I believe even ROM-equipped lenses require that this is done mechanically.  That slows things down, and the SL may be reluctant to accept the requirement.

 

scott

 

We've had this discussion before somewhere in these SL threads. Recapping:

 

A T lens fitted to the SL is a dedicated, fully-body-controlled lens, just like an SL lens. The body knows the focus setting, the lens id, and controls the aperture completely. The body knows the maximum aperture as well as the set aperture of the lens. The lens can behave much as an SLR lens does, that is, holding full aperture until the moment of exposure (unless the body needs to use the aperture mechanism as part of screen brightness regulation), stopping down at exposure time, etc. 

 

Leica M lenses don't have auto-aperture mechanisms and don't have any direct mechanism that reports the lens opening or focus setting to the body. The M Adapter T (now M Adapter L) reads the lens code and transfers that to the body, so the body knows the lens' ID and maximum aperture. Using that information and the body's independent ambient light sensor, it estimates a lens opening for the EXIF data and also triggers the use of dedicated lens correction algorithms tailored for the individual lens and the T or SL sensor. 

 

What the M Adapter T does isn't entirely relevant to a dedicated R adapter. R lenses have mechanisms for SLR type auto stop down operation of the diaphragm and have up to three different "cam" configuration intended to transmit to the body the lens maximum aperture as well as the currently set aperture. They can also have a set of static ROM contacts which transmit to the body coded lens id and processing optimizations. These mechanical connections net the body control of the aperture to support P and T mode metering (as long as the lens aperture control ring is set to minimum aperture) as well as the same 'auto aperture stop down' that native SL lenses are capable of. There's no reason other than engineering complexity that implementing this is impossible, although it might be impractical for providing AASD at the sequence rates the SL is capable of ... no R lens or R body was ever designed to do aperture stop down at an 11FPS rate, and the SL might indeed have less lag time between shutter press and exposure making AASD itself a tricky timing game. Barring the practical issues of lens capability, implementing full R8/R9 level lens operation should be possible although complex. 

 

The benefits for a fully implemented "R Adapter SL" include (as often stated) easier, faster focusing as well as full lens ID and aperture information in the EXIF (presuming a ROM lens). There's another benefit, however: auto aperture stop down allows the body a greater metering range in low light since there's more light coming through the lens for the body to use if the aperture is held open until the moment of exposure. As it is now, in Manual or Aperture priority mode, both R and M lenses run out of meter coupling range when stopped down beyond a certain point, depending upon the amount of ambient light in the scene. This causes the lens to 'drop off' the metering curve and the camera to underexpose—you can see it as you approach f/11 and beyond in middling light circumstances. With full control of aperture and open aperture metering possible in the SL 24-90 lens, this does not occur until much lower light circumstances are encountered.

 

I'm sure Leica is aware of all these benefits and issues. Let's hope that they can find a way to incorporate full R8/R9 level lens control into the dedicated "R Adapter SL". 

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[lct]

[...] As it is now, in Manual or Aperture priority mode, both R and M lenses run out of meter coupling range when stopped down beyond a certain point, depending upon the amount of ambient light in the scene. This causes the lens to 'drop off' the metering curve and the camera to underexpose—you can see it as you approach f/11 and beyond in middling light circumstances. [...]

 

Is this your experience with the SL601? Just asking as i've got no significant under (or over) exposition when metering M and R lenses at f/11 or f/16 so far.

[ramarren]

Is this your experience with the SL601? Just asking as i've got no significant under (or over) exposition when metering M and R lenses at f/11 or f/16 so far.

 

It's been my experience with all cameras using adapted lenses and is no different with the SL. Whether you encounter it or not depends upon what the scene brightness is, whether you're using AutoISO or a fixed ISO, and what specific ISO setting you're using. 

 

In average shooting I rarely encounter the problem. But when doing test series of adapted lenses at all apertures, as I did yesterday, it becomes immediately apparent in moderate to low light that under-exposure due to falling off the metering range is happening. For instance, my test target yesterday with the Elmarit-R 135mm f/2.8 metered for ISO 400 at f/2.8 and 1/400 second. In A or M mode, with the lens stopped down to f/11, it should have been setting 1/25 second but it had fallen off the metering range and was setting 1/40; at f/16, it was further off at 1/30; and at f/22 it's even further off at 1/20 where it should be 1/6.

 

The same thing happens with the Olympus E-M1 (and happened with the Sony A7) when I test the same lens through the aperture range. It's a natural consequence of the body's metering range and the lack of full-aperture metering. There comes a point where there's simply too little light for the meter to provide an accurate reading. Sadly, most modern cameras don't provide the metering range in their specifications. 

[lct]

Do you mean that your pics were too dark or too bright actually?

[k-hawinkler]

It seems underexposed, so, too dark, no?

[lct]

Sounds logical but i've never got too dark pics in such circumstances so i try to understand in what consists this issue actually.

[rick_dykstra]

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Tell me if I'm wrong, but:

 

- M lenses seem to work well on the SL, stopped down

- R lenses seem to work well, with adapters that leave the aperture stopped down.

 

If so, I suspect Leica won't include a mechanical aperture activation device in an R adapter.

 

However, there is more to 'work well' than just looking at the end result, for example - improved focussing with the lens wide open. Ah, but electronic focussing aids help out there (peaking, magnification). Both of which are useless to me when shooting fast moving birds with long lenses. Hmmm. :-( I notice the 'no compromise' in the title of this thread.

 

Simple question: does the SL 24-90 have an electronic aperture that closes for each shot? What about when capturing video? Surely it stays closed?

 

Thanks.

[wlaidlaw]

Isn't this what the screen preview is for, so that you can dial in EV+ or - .  I often have to correct images for one reason or another. The other thing I don't quite get is people assigning one button or other for EV adjustment. There is a dedicated EV button. 

 

Wilson

[ramarren]

Isn't this what the screen preview is for, so that you can dial in EV+ or - .  I often have to correct images for one reason or another. The other thing I don't quite get is people assigning one button or other for EV adjustment. There is a dedicated EV button. 

 

Wilson

 

EV Comp is on the LV button by defaulte, but I find that uncomfortable to use. I put it on the FN button, and use the LV button for exposure bracketing. 

[pico]

After two bouts of flu [...] two weeks ago I consulted a charming lady pharmacist in Boots the Chemist who gave me a flu jab.

Today while at the doc's his assistant gave me a shot. How in the world can anyone screw that up? While leaving I passed in front of a group of nurses as I massaged my arm. One spoke up, "Her name is Wendy". "Great, I can imagine rolling over my arm tonight crying "Wendy" then seeing y'all in the emergency room." (Me mate's name is Molly. Irish. No more need be said.)

[ramarren]

The topic of the dedicated R Adapter SL has been done quite a bit in this and other threads. I suspect it's time to wait and see what Leica delivers. Conjecture really goes nowhere. 

 

Simple question: does the SL 24-90 have an electronic aperture that closes for each shot? What about when capturing video? Surely it stays closed?

 

The dedicated SL 24-90 aperture is controlled by the body. Watching it operate, it most often emulates an SLR lens with auto diaphragm unless:

• The body needs to adjust the aperture as part of maintaining constant illumination in the EVF/LCD in "normal" viewing mode. 
• You elect to use the aperture or aperture+exposure time simulation modes. 
• You are previewing or capturing in movie mode (then it has to stay at taking aperture the duration of the shot).

Its behavior seems identical to native lenses on my Olympus E-M1, which makes sense given that they're trying to do the same things. 

[Joshua Lowe]

I think I may end up eating some crow when it comes to the SL.

 

My initial reaction it the announcement was very negative.  It was everything I didn't want to see added to the M: EVF only, larger, heavier, even more focused on video, auto focus. But, after giving it some more I thought, I realized that it's not an M and that one of the SL's aims may be to relieve the M series of the pressure of adding these features.  And I think the M Type 262 might be a better indicator of where the line's headed.  The other reason why I've come to appreciate the SL is the image quality.  To my eyes the SL's color reproduction looks better than the M240's.

 

That said, I'm still pretty leery of Leica's "professional" mantra regarding this camera.  I'm not seeing where it fits into PJ.  And it's definitely not for sports until it has system lenses that surpass the Canikon 70-200 zooms and 300/400 f2.8 primes.  Studio, advertising, and fashion?  Maybe, but the MP count is low compared to its competitors and it's going up against its own relative in the S.

 

The end of the year's coming up and I'll probably pick up a new toy to complement my M240.  I've been back and forth about getting an M246, a Q, or something out of the family like the 645Z.  After being pretty dismissive of the SL at first it's now definitely a consideration.  It seems to be quite good at what it does, regardless of how "professional" it may or may not be.

[pop]

....I'm not seeing where it fits into PJ.  And it's definitely not for sports until it has system lenses that surpass the Canikon 70-200 zooms and 300/400 f2.8 primes.  ....

Why does it have to surpass the Canikon zooms? Could they not be simply "just as good", once they're here? After all, the Canikon lenses do not surpass themselves, either, and are still   used for sports.

[thighslapper]

EV Comp is on the LV button by defaulte, but I find that uncomfortable to use. I put it on the FN button, and use the LV button for exposure bracketing. 

ditto ...... exactly what I have done ..... FN makes more sense as it's one parameter I'm always fiddling with ...... but I have LV configured for exposure metering mode ....... and a separate profile for bracketing with other parameters set as well on the assumption this will be for HDR or similar. 

[wlaidlaw]

Stick a 3M Bumpon onto the LV button. Makes it 100% more usable. I found it close to impossible to locate the LV button with the camera at my eye without the Bumpon but now it's dead easy. For my hands it is now easier than the FN button, even though I have put a Bumpon on that as well. I am going to see if I can carve a larger Bumpon to the oval shape of the FN button, as the circular Bumpon looks a bit scruffy on it. 

 

Wilson

[Winedemonium]

I sat on the fence for a while with this one. But yesterday I bought the camera and should have it in my hands this week.

 

I can't give an entirely firm justification beyond self-indulgence. But I did question what this might add to a pretty good M and S bag. What, indeed? 

 

Decent AF, good ISO performance, and good adaptation for M lenses like the Noctilux, longer lenses, like the 2/180R and 4/280R, and for PC lenses. I have also been waiting for a solution for 55 and 85 Otuses, and OVF Nikon cameras were not well suited to focusing them (for me anyway).

 

I'd quite like it if Leica produced a native SL lens (FF, no APSC) that was compact and light, e.g.a Summarit or even Elmarit. 

 

Once I have the SL I will try to give some impressions here on experiences with various adapted lenses. I'm enjoying seeing results coming through from others here.

[Ronazle]

I have no idea how the new camera is going to progress, but the game has changed:  The RFDR Leicas (in recent years) have had no competition or have, perhaps,  competed with themselves; now Leica is taking on the other SL cameras and has a lot of competition. It will be interesting. Regards, ron

[zeleny]

Why does it have to surpass the Canikon zooms? Could they not be simply "just as good", once they're here? After all, the Canikon lenses do not surpass themselves, either, and are still   used for sports.

Because it would cost two to three times as much?

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[G. van Asch]

After reading Steve Huff's review I have to buy a Leica SL 601. I am going to trade in my M8 and M6, keep my 35/50/90mm lenses.

I live in Turkey so I hope there will be a camera available for christmas in Holland. I use my M8 daily walking my dog and love it but time has come

to use an EVF getting older and less fast using the M.

Sorry to bother all members with this message but I had to send it.

Gerjan van Asch

[larsv]

After reading Steve Huff's review I have to buy a Leica SL 601. I am going to trade in my M8 and M6, keep my 35/50/90mm lenses.

I live in Turkey so I hope there will be a camera available for christmas in Holland. I use my M8 daily walking my dog and love it but time has come

to use an EVF getting older and less fast using the M.

Sorry to bother all members with this message but I had to send it.

Gerjan van Asch

Beste Gerjan,

 

Why don't you give Nivo-Schweitzer (Amsterdam) a call.  I got mine from them and thought they had more in stock.

 

Best regards,

Lars