lct Posted September 20, 2015 Share #941 Posted September 20, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) Well, the lens would not vignette at all. It would just work in APS mode automatically. And would cost a lot less most probably. I suspect that some not-that-innocent AF users with not-that-deep pockets could be interested by a feature like that. Leica would need them, besides M & R users, if they hoped to sell more than a couple full frame EVILs if you ask me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 20, 2015 Posted September 20, 2015 Hi lct, Take a look here NEW M.. This year.. This Fall.... I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
rosuna Posted September 20, 2015 Share #942 Posted September 20, 2015 A bit of information about the new system... http://www.dslrmagazine.com/digital/camaras-sin-espejo/nueva-mirrorless-de-leica-24x36-mm-y-montura-t.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted September 20, 2015 Share #943 Posted September 20, 2015 Valentín Sama says: 1. The new system will be presented in 30-60 days. 2. The new system will be based on the T mount and 24x36 format. 3. The price of the body would be 7.000 euros +/-4. The sensor of the Q (and the new camera) may be manufactured by a company from Israel (Panasonic has a participation in this company). Panasonic has something to do with the inner electronics of the Q. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted September 20, 2015 Share #944 Posted September 20, 2015 A bit of information about the new system... http://www.dslrmagazine.com/digital/camaras-sin-espejo/nueva-mirrorless-de-leica-24x36-mm-y-montura-t.html « Se presentaría una nueva serie de ópticas para la montura Leica-T pero con círculo de cobertura para 24x36 mm y por supuesto AF. Esa solución parece de una lógica aplastante, pues los objetivos Leica-T actuales podrían emplearse en "modo recorte" sobre la nueva cámara. » Reminds me of something. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 20, 2015 Share #945 Posted September 20, 2015 Well, the lens would not vignette at all. It would just work in APS mode automatically. And would cost a lot less most probably. I suspect that some not-that-innocent AF users with not-that-deep pockets could be interested by a feature like that. Leica would need them, besides M & R users, if they hoped to sell more than a couple full frame EVILs if you ask me. Like a rectangular vignette then Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted September 20, 2015 Share #946 Posted September 20, 2015 The Sony E-mount diameter is 46mm +/- and the T mount is 50mm. (Leica M is 44mm, Leica R 49mm , Canon EOS 54mm). The ideal size (diameter) for a mount on a modern mirrorless camera is 50 to 100% larger than the diagonal of the sensor (diameter of the image circle). So those mounts are a bit short for 24x36 but perfect for APS-C. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted September 20, 2015 Share #947 Posted September 20, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) The ideal size (diameter) for a mount on a modern mirrorless camera is 50 to 100% larger than the diagonal of the sensor (diameter of the image circle). We would need a least 64mm mounts for FF cameras then (43 x 1.5). Are you sure of that? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 20, 2015 Share #948 Posted September 20, 2015 Yes, but mount size has to be seen in relationship to body size. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted September 20, 2015 Share #949 Posted September 20, 2015 Well, yes, but not every buyer will be knowledgeable enough to know this, and may innocently buy a vignetting lens. If it works for Nikon, why wouldn’t it work for Leica? Obviously there would have to be some designation differentiating 35 mm from APS-C lenses, like Nikon’s ‘FX’ vs. ‘DX’. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted September 20, 2015 Share #950 Posted September 20, 2015 Valentín Sama says: 1. The new system will be presented in 30-60 days. 2. The new system will be based on the T mount and 24x36 format. 3. The price of the body would be 7.000 euros +/- 4. The sensor of the Q (and the new camera) may be manufactured by a company from Israel (Panasonic has a participation in this company). Panasonic has something to do with the inner electronics of the Q. If that is true I was 100% right Well the sensor is Panasonic, no idea where it's made ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 20, 2015 Share #951 Posted September 20, 2015 No, it is not Panasonic, but they have a large share in the company that makes it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted September 20, 2015 Share #952 Posted September 20, 2015 We would need a least 64mm mounts for FF cameras then (43 x 1.5). Are you sure of that? 1.5 to 2.0 is the ideal multiplier for digital mirrorless AF systems, yes. And it implies almost 70mm throat diameter for 24x36 format or larger. That is too much for a normal body. Reflex cameras have longer flange distances, and this helps. That is the reason of the Fujifilm and Olympus compromise with smaller formats, or the no existence of medium format mirrorless systems (yet). You can propose a system with narrower mounts (Sony E), but it implies serious difficulties for the optical designer, which translates to larger or more expensive lenses, software corrections, special sensors... etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevelap Posted September 20, 2015 Share #953 Posted September 20, 2015 4. The sensor of the Q (and the new camera) may be manufactured by a company from Israel (Panasonic has a participation in this company). Panasonic has something to do with the inner electronics of the Q. TowerJazz Panasonic Semiconductor Co. Ltd. (TPSCo) is a joint venture 49% owned by Panasonic who contributed three of its Japanese fabs to the new entity a while ago http://www.towerjazz.com/jv.html TowerJazz is headquartered in Israel and TPSCo is based in japan. http://www.towerjazz.com/contact-towerjazz.html It's known that TowerJazz has previously supplied sensors to CMOSIS and, obviously, TPSCo now does the same for Panasonic. Given that Leica said that the Q's sensor is not a CMOSIS or Sony, it seems at least likely that TPSCo might be the source. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leicaflex Posted September 20, 2015 Share #954 Posted September 20, 2015 7000€ for a body with T-mount? Wow. Thats allmost 5 times the price of the Leica T. I wonder what could justify this huge step up? Even with FF, inbody stabilisation and 4k that would be quite hefty. Thats more than a liker M. What do you think? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnbuckley Posted September 20, 2015 Share #955 Posted September 20, 2015 If this report is accurate -- essentially a Q with some native AF lenses (they reference a kit lens), the ability to shoot T-mount lenses, and M manual focus lenses -- then I admit to being pretty confused. At least as regards the future of M photography. If Leica's energy is going into producing a fairly complicated, Swiss Army Knife type hybrid, with necessary compromises, in order to compete with the A7, but are not simultaneously releasing a meaningful upgrade to the M, as a longtime M user, which also means an investor in M lenses, I will admit to feeling that Leica is abandoning the thing that makes them distinctive, and has locked me into their ecosystem: the simple advantages (outweighing the limitations) of the very high quality M system. If we thus aren't getting a new M for another year, while all of Leica's energies go into perfecting this Q/T kludge...hmmm, not good. If on the other hand, they are putting out a Q that accepts M and T lenses, while also (in 2015) putting out a successor to the M-240, then I can happily embrace the latter and ignore the former. Or if prosperous, embrace the latter and consider whether there is a place for the former in my future kit. (Final suspicious thought: maybe Leica is trying to get its prosperous clientele to divide along M/S vs Q/T lines...) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted September 20, 2015 Share #956 Posted September 20, 2015 If this report is accurate -- essentially a Q with some native AF lenses (they reference a kit lens), the ability to shoot T-mount lenses, and M manual focus lenses -- then I admit to being pretty confused. At least as regards the future of M photography. If Leica's energy is going into producing a fairly complicated, Swiss Army Knife type hybrid, with necessary compromises, in order to compete with the A7, but are not simultaneously releasing a meaningful upgrade to the M, as a longtime M user, which also means an investor in M lenses, I will admit to feeling that Leica is abandoning the thing that makes them distinctive, and has locked me into their ecosystem: the simple advantages (outweighing the limitations) of the very high quality M system. If we thus aren't getting a new M for another year, while all of Leica's energies go into perfecting this Q/T kludge...hmmm, not good. If on the other hand, they are putting out a Q that accepts M and T lenses, while also (in 2015) putting out a successor to the M-240, then I can happily embrace the latter and ignore the former. Or if prosperous, embrace the latter and consider whether there is a place for the former in my future kit. (Final suspicious thought: maybe Leica is trying to get its prosperous clientele to divide along M/S vs Q/T lines...) Hi John, I think you may be being a little pessimistic. The release of this new system may, perhaps, delay the release of the next digital M camera - it will certainly have an impact on it. I don't think for a minute it will be a "kludge", and I rather hope it removes the potential for that accusation being levelled at the next M - if you consider that the M is primarily a rangefinder camera at its best between 28mm & 90mm, then some of the additions in the M(240) arising from the CMOSIS sensor sit a little ... uneasily with that history, and some of the features are not as well implemented as they are on some other cameras. I don't see this next system necessarily as being competition for the A7 cameras, as much as soaking up Leica users who are going the Sony way because Leica hasn't got a similar offering. If you look at the S camera, Leica is good (apparently) at top quality AF lenses, as well as MF lenses. They also have a history of making zooms for the R camera which performed as well as their primes. So, what could the new camera bring for us? I would have thought the T mount is likely, with the ability to take existing T lenses for APS-C (the camera will just default to APS-C format in the same way that Nikon cameras do with their DX lenses). There is an existing T-M adapter, so all the M mount MF primes between 18mm & 135mm are available. That leaves open AF primes, zooms, specialist lenses like macro and tilt/shift and MF/AF primes wider than 18mm and longer than 135. Leica has made some very highly respected lenses outside the M capability in the past, so there is no reason to think they cannot in the future. The success of the Zeiss Otus, Batis & Milvus lenses give an indication of what is achievable. Turning to the camera, what will it offer? My original hope was that the camera would be priced in the same or only slightly more than the Nikon D810, Canon 5DSR & Sony a7 cameras - in the $4,000 to $5,000 range. The reason I had hoped for this was I wanted the price to reflect the fact (often repeated here) that while you might use a film M for life, and digital M will live only as long as the electronics remain repairable or replaceable - that is a far shorter time frame, probably no more than 10 years. That life span doesn't warrant a Leica M price tag to my mind; so the challenge is how to keep the price down. The Leica T is $1,700 so this expectation was not too wide of the mark to my mind. It appears, perhaps, this expectation was wrong, and probably for good reason - to develop a new system, you need to look more at a 35mm format S camera, without the mirror box. We know that Leica will not resurrect the R camera, and there seems little point going back to dSLR at this stage. So, perhaps we are looking at some truly state of the art mirrorless which sits between the M camera and the S? with a new lens line to match? Who knows, but I would have thought that a new sensor based on the Q sensor is likely. More than 24MP? I would have thought not - the S(007) is a new camera and has "only" 37.5MP, so more MP on the new system would seem odd (though, MP is largely irrelevant in the scheme of things - handheld, 24MP is plenty). If we look at the T and the S cameras, the interface is going to be pretty good - very Leica, with less buttons than the Canons or Nikons, and more attuned to what Leica photographers are used to than Sony. I very much doubt that Leica will push the boat out with strange new digital capability that is provided because it is possible, rather than wanted (video on the M(240) is a case in point). I expect we will see the ISO, aperture, shutter and focus settings readily available, in a traditional way, and other settings through a system similar to the S camera's 4 buttons. I also imagine that the T touchscreen interface cost Leica a lot to develop, and perhaps a version of that might get an airing. Who knows? As for the impact on your M(240), I would think that would be minimal. Your camera will continue to operate as it is now, and the next M will be developed to sit alongside this new system - hopefully, it sits more comfortably with it's historical manual place in the world, alongside the M-A, Monochrom, MP & M7 ... Whatever it is, we will all examine it from our computer screens and go "oooh" and "ahhh", while others will quickly declare it to be stupidly limited or fatally compromised; but it will be expensive and I'm sure it will be very good at what it does. Cheers John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Kilmister Posted September 20, 2015 Share #957 Posted September 20, 2015 After 48 pages of (mainly) piffle, the Johns from DC and NZ have added value. Hurrah! Maybe I am crabby (especially after 16 days without tobacco) but perhaps some of us see through the reason that others are nailing their colours to the mast of competitors offerings and trying to compare cherries with cabbages? Most forums would have stopped the trolls. Anyway, I'd rather have my Leica cherry rather than an AF cabbage. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnbuckley Posted September 20, 2015 Share #958 Posted September 20, 2015 John - You make some very good points, and I am reassured reading what you wrote. I should say, though, I don't think I'm pessimistic -- that Leica is not just alive but seemingly thriving in 2015 is reason for optimism. And I'm also not a purist: I welcomed the M-240 because it enabled us to push beyond the limitations of a rangefinder. Moreover, I think I'd quite like a Q, and have no problem with an AF camera. (So long as it's not called an M . My, I guess the word is concern, lies in two places. First, can a small company walk and chew gum at the same time -- can they produce this new system and also get out the door all their other products? And yeah, what does this mean for the M? And as I tried making clear, if there is no negative effect on the R&D and production schedule of a new, updated, improved M, then I will root for the new system camera... and may even, business prospects willing, buy one. Cheers, John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnbuckley Posted September 20, 2015 Share #959 Posted September 20, 2015 And Pkilmister, don't let this exchange send you back to smoking! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NZDavid Posted September 21, 2015 Share #960 Posted September 21, 2015 It's still all pure speculation. Given previous product cycles I would have expected a new M update next year not this. There is also supposed to be an X-U coming soon. U for Unobtainable? Unexpected? Leica does have a precedent of coming up with something entirely novel from time to time. How about a new traditionally-styled APS-sensor camera that accepts T lenses (call them X-T perhaps) as well as M lenses with an adapter? I would agree T lenses and an M body would not be an ideal solution. €7000 is a stratospheric price even for an M camera! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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