AndreasAM Posted August 7, 2015 Share #301 Posted August 7, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) A future camera with a combination of genes from the M, T, Q ,the integration of the opto-electronic RangeFinder (see patents) and a state of the art EVF in a Hybrid Viewfinder has all the potential to give Leica a head start in the FF and or APS-C Mirrorless market. I just can't help to think that Leica is pushing for this the last two years and there might be a need for it. They can secure the co-operation with Panasonic this way. I suspect they need bigger production volumes than the Q for this. Panasonic can deliver them the R&D and produce the electronics. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 7, 2015 Posted August 7, 2015 Hi AndreasAM, Take a look here NEW M.. This year.. This Fall.... I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Bill Livingston Posted August 7, 2015 Share #302 Posted August 7, 2015 Bringing out an M with AF would affect its size feature. Ditching RF would be suicide. Bringing out a Q with interchangeable lenses would most likely kill the M (in the long run anyway). If you truly believe the first two points you made, how can you then concede the final point...? Isn't that in direct conflict with your main argument? I think a M with a hybrid EVF/OVF for manual focus and a Q with interchangeable AF lenses would make two very complimentary systems, particularly if you could use the M lenses on the Q with manual focus... and you could ditch the T completely... Interchangeable bodies complimenting each other and any user of one system could easily migrate to the other. Perfect... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 7, 2015 Share #303 Posted August 7, 2015 Now, now, Jaap. No one mentioned conspiracies. That's very naughty of you, putting words in my mouth that were never there. Careful, or you'll get moderated ... Where did I say you did mentioned conspiracies? I only said you were free to do so... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
likealot Posted August 7, 2015 Share #304 Posted August 7, 2015 If you truly believe the first two points you made, how can you then concede the final point...? Isn't that in direct conflict with your main argument? I think a M with a hybrid EVF/OVF for manual focus and a Q with interchangeable AF lenses would make two very complimentary systems, particularly if you could use the M lenses on the Q with manual focus... and you could ditch the T completely... Interchangeable bodies complimenting each other and any user of one system could easily migrate to the other. Perfect... I dont think there is a conflict. Those are 3 different options which have been already explored several times in various threads in this forum so they are not just my ideas. Your idea may work however it is not tested in practice and it would be taking a gamble. If I could have a Q with interchangeable lenses and which can use M lenses too at a price point of £3k then why would I need an M? Considering that the Q would most likely catch up pretty quickly with the M in terms of IQ. Am I prepared to spend £5k on an M and be prepared to take on the high costs of future servicing just for the pleasure of using RF? I'm afraid not. The M may not die off completely but its sales would surely be affected negatively. Times are changing. There is a move nowadays away from going out with 2-3 cameras around your neck. People just want one camera to do a decent job in a variety of daily life situations. iPhones and Samsung Galaxies have already affected the camera market and will most likely continue to do so even more in the future as technology improves. Now I am always assuming that Leica is looking to increase the market share. Otherwise it might as well carry on the way it is. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Livingston Posted August 8, 2015 Share #305 Posted August 8, 2015 Seems we agree then. I would think of the Q with interchangeable lenses and the ability to manually focus M lenses as the camera for new customers and also as a means of migrating over from existing M users who have an eye on using new technology to help them achieve their vision. I too would expect the M to slowly lose sales as older and more traditional RF users either change their preferences or continue using the cameras they have used until there are so few of that generation left there is no viable market. The hybrid is simply a way to extend the M's lifetime. I doubt it is a viable long term option in the face of Q derivatives, particularly one with a hybrid VF and AF with dedicated lenses and the ability to focus legacy glass on manual hybrid focus. I would fully expect that in a few years, maybe a little sooner, the numbers will decline enough (and as the advantages of the new camera outweigh the advantages of the M in terms of picture taking ability) for Leica to finally abandon the traditional rangefinder camera as its advantages are eroded and the new camera technology that will become available will take over. There will still be traditional RF cameras available on the used market for many years to come, so photographers will still have that option... but I am not sure the market size would justify Leica to continue to produce them as new. I am sure there will be many new photographers getting into rangefinder cameras and even film for some considerable time... But will the market be big enough to warrant new cameras to meet it? There WILL come a time when Leica will stop producing the M... Whether it is in two or three years, five or ten, or fifty... That time WILL come... So they need to position themselves accordingly if the company is going to prosper well into the future. I would very definitely be in the new camp, but I can see myself holding on to my M240P as well... Maybe... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramosa Posted August 8, 2015 Share #306 Posted August 8, 2015 It'll be a Q-extension (ala how Sony moved from the RX1 to A7 series). It will sell very well (per Leica standards) and bodes well for the future of the M, as Leica can return that camera system to what it it always was prior to the M240. Instead of trying to please everyone (like with the M240), it can go back to being a "Leica M," smaller and lighter, providing the best manual focus user experience available and having exceptional (Q or better) image quality ... without any bells or whistles (e.g., the live view, video, monster battery of the M240). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Livingston Posted August 8, 2015 Share #307 Posted August 8, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) Good point. I can see a camera like that as a very smart move... maybe even simpler, perhaps as simple as an M60, but one that you can configure the menu externally and then once configured, can revert to a very simple manual rangefinder in actual use. I'm sure that could be thinner and lighter too... With the updated Q derived M series being the full package with AF and a hybrid rangefinder for MF with existing M series lenses...and for those of us who recognise that there are certain circumstances where manual focus is preferable. There would be a market for both, certainly in the short term... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmahto Posted August 8, 2015 Share #308 Posted August 8, 2015 I have a Sony Nex 6 which supposedly has a "superior" EVF than the M240. That may be true in terms of resolution, but frankly that's not my biggest gripe with EVF's. The problem is the loss of live view while the shot is being recorded, and a certain lag until the real-time image comes back on line. A prime reason often cited as an advantage of the Leica over an SLR is the uninterrupted follow-through in the finder. An EVF's lag is much more intrusive than the momentary blackout of instant-return-mirror SLR's. And it's not the blank screen that bothers me. A frozen image of the subject as it was when I pressed the shutter is not mitigating. What I have taken to doing with my Nex 6 is using a shoe-mounted finder matched to the equivalent focal length, resorting to the EVF only for focusing. The issue of parallax is less bother to me than the EVF's temporary blindness. So an M with a built-in EVF in place of or hybridized over the OVF would not be a camera I would pay Leica prices to own. However I love my M240, there are things I can do with Sony Nex 6 which I can't do with M See here. Nothing to do with EVF, simply ability to keep the shutter open for long time, no black frame to waste time and intervalometer. https://flic.kr/p/x268HY How much I would love to carry only one camera in my camping trips (hint: I want it to be M++) From M240: https://flic.kr/p/wLPhVq Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bocaburger Posted August 8, 2015 Share #309 Posted August 8, 2015 I have no idea who Shaquille O'Neal is, nor what size pump she actually uses. Shall it be assumed you have no idea who Google is either? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted August 8, 2015 Share #310 Posted August 8, 2015 There WILL come a time when Leica will stop producing the M... Whether it is in two or three years, five or ten, or fifty... That time WILL come... So they need to position themselves accordingly if the company is going to prosper well into the future. The M system is just one system in Leica’s portfolio; there are the S and T systems and the lines of compact cameras (X and Q). Also Leica is well aware that a major increase in market share isn’t likely to come from M system growth. Still I don’t really worry about the M. According to the pundits the M should have withered years or decades ago, but on the contrary it is still a viable (if comparatively low volume) system. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted August 8, 2015 Share #311 Posted August 8, 2015 According to the pundits the M should have withered years or decades ago... Count Leica among those pundits, at least with regard to digital...they led us to believe a digital M wasn't in the cards, then that a full frame digital M couldn't be done... Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted August 8, 2015 Share #312 Posted August 8, 2015 Count Leica among those pundits, at least with regard to digital...they led us to believe a digital M wasn't in the cards, then that a full frame digital M couldn't be done... Jeff Yes, the ancient Romans also had us believe that horses and oxen were the only kind of motors possible for cars and just barely so for planes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bocaburger Posted August 8, 2015 Share #313 Posted August 8, 2015 Let's not forget Leica still sells film rangefinder cameras, and not just from a residual inventory, the MA (or is it M-A?) is recent. So I wouldn't be quick to presume they are ready to blow away the hard-core rangefinder lovers by bastardizing the only digital M body with an obtrusive EVF. I expect they will release a FF M-mount EVIL, but keep a traditional rangefinder M in the product mix as long as it is selling profitably. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
outspann Posted August 8, 2015 Share #314 Posted August 8, 2015 Regardless of which direction Leica choose to go in, I believe they would be wise to remember the quote from Steve Jobs: "If you don't cannibalize yourself, someone else will" I think with cameras - as with all corporate branding - you are always either moving forward or moving backward. Right now with the M, Leica seems unsure of which it wants to do: hold onto the traditional workings of the M and make a virtue of their tradition, their calmness and their timelessness (as has happened in recent years in music with the resurgence in album sales), or leap into the future with an all new M (like the iPod did). I agree that trying to be all things to all people in one camera is the path to mediocrity and ultimately, irrelevance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted August 8, 2015 Share #315 Posted August 8, 2015 Welcome to the forum. Would be surprising if Leica were not sure of what they want at this stage. If rumors are to be taken more or less seriously, a full frame EVIL should complement the Leica's offer in the short run. But the M would remain an M i.e. a rangefinder in optical and/or electronic version. The M is the goose that lays golden eggs for Leica so it is not tomorrow that they will kill it anyway. So much the better for RF lovers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
outspann Posted August 8, 2015 Share #316 Posted August 8, 2015 Thanks lct - though I've lurked on here for a long time, I'm finally convincing myself that now it the time to upgrade from my M7. And as this forum is obviously where all Leica engineers come to decide on future trends, i thought it was time I started contributing! Unlike some posters here, I don't believe that RF is as fast as a modern AF - even with branches, trees, or randomly moving people in the way. Back-button controlled, centre-point focusing works instantly. I use Nikons for work and focus in all but the darkest of conditions is lightning fast. It's not surprising then that the reason that I'm looking to buy a digital Leica is because it slows me down, not speeds me up. Leica are the only lenses that I believe are able to be focussed manually. In moving to autofocus, every other manufacturer has abandoned the idea that anyone would want to focus their lenses by hand. Plus, great and all as my Nikon is when shooting in areas where people expect a camera to be present, it is far too obvious for subtle work and far too heavy and cumbersome to be carried casually. I'd hate for Leica to abandon their manual-first focussing, but maybe it is time to introduce a Plan B autofocus option. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomlianza Posted August 8, 2015 Share #317 Posted August 8, 2015 After sending my M9 and a few lenses back to Leica for adjustment, I purchased a Fuji X-Pro 1 with the leica adapter. I learned a great deal about the EVF and how a "range-finder" like camera can perform with and without AF. The camera works well with Leica Lenses and the EVF with focus peaking is great. The fuji lenses are very good. Leica could probably make a camera like this. The hybrid viewfinder is quite interesting. With Fuji lenses, the Optical finder outline changes appropriately for the basic focal lengths that can be used by the optical viewfinder and the center indicator moves to correct for parallax. For me shooting with the optical viewfinder is much more satisfying than the EVF. I am now getting accustomed to my new M240. I don't use the EVF unless I am mounting a non-rangefinder coupled lens. In general, the XPro-1 makes shooting in this mode a lot easier than the because of the EVF option. I gave up on the Fuji XT-1 because the auto-focus just wasn't fast enough nor reliable enough. In this regard, Nikon won hands down. If leica is going to bring out an auto-focus line with new lenses they have better be sure that the auto-focus is great. It has been my experience that auto focus is both a curse and a blessing. For those of us that know how to use the M rangefinder, auto focus is not a real critical need. The key with an M is to practice, practice and practice. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted August 8, 2015 Share #318 Posted August 8, 2015 Yes, the ancient Romans also had us believe that horses and oxen were the only kind of motors possible for cars and just barely so for planes. Those were lean years for Fiat, but it's just as well they didn't listen, eh. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnbuckley Posted August 8, 2015 Share #319 Posted August 8, 2015 I've read much speculation about the possibilities of what the new M will be like, and it reminds me of something. Prior to the announcement in 2012 of the M, there was speculation that it would have live view, and I distinctly remember predictions that this would be the end of the M -- that it would be a move away from the rangefinder, etc. In fact, one of the delights of the M-240 was how much improved the rangefinder in it is, even as live view has given us amazing new possibilities, such as telephoto lenses... On an M! Most of us love what the M became. And here we are now with a vague sense that there will be new viewfinder options. Rather than fear what's coming and worry that Leica is moving away from what makes the M so distinctive, maybe we should trust that they are working on something that, like the M-240, preserves what we love about the M, while improving it. Just a thought. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bocaburger Posted August 8, 2015 Share #320 Posted August 8, 2015 one of the delights of the M-240 was how much improved the rangefinder in it is, even as live view has given us amazing new possibilities, such as telephoto lenses... On an M! I've had two M240's for quite some time now and I still can't find one whit of improvement over the rangefinders in my former M9, M8 or for that matter, M4. What IS different is the glaringly-bright electronic frame lines that require waking the camera up to see them. To me that's an example of using obtrusive technology to fix something that wasn't broken. And people have been using telephoto lenses on an M for 60 years. The only difference is, previously one used a mechanical device that was sluggish in returning to active view, and now we use an electronic device that is sluggish in returning to active view. Due to the inclusion of features many of us do not use or want, the M240 gained weight (larger battery), and a thumb wheel that changes the ergonomics of grip in a way that makes the minute increase in girth feel magnified. It still does not have a PC outlet (a fail present since the M8), so flash and the EVF or an accessory OVF are mutually incompatible. Leica's "solution" being an expensive, bulky add-on grip. For me the now-Leica-like shutter sound alone is worth the price of admission compared to the smack-whirlybang nonsense of the M9 and M8; however I would not paint the M240's evolution as completely rosy. Therefore I am prepared to cringe at whatever they have in mind to Frankenstein into the next generation Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.