AlanJW Posted August 7, 2015 Share #261 Posted August 7, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) So an M with a built-in EVF in place of or hybridized over the OVF would not be a camera I would pay Leica prices to own. I accept that this is the view of many, but I am not sure I would reject a hybrid EVF with Leica Q quality. I certainly would not reject a Leica M with new high ISO sensor, OVF and an accessory Q quality finder, all of which appears to be very do-able and probably likely. The Q EVF is better than anything else I have used, which includes Sony and Oly. The first time I looked though it I turned the camera around looking for the viewfinder window in front because I was skeptical that an EVF could be that good. Of course it still suffers from the viewing lag between shots but IMHO it is no worse that good DSLR. For static work like landscapes, still lifes, etc., this is not a problem. For more dynamic scenes, maybe a problem, but then again, there have been some really good "in the moment" shots taken by DSLRS and even EVF cameras. Rangefinders aren't the only way to capture a decisive moment. IMHO the photographer (and what is between his or her ears) remains more important than the type of viewfinder used. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 7, 2015 Posted August 7, 2015 Hi AlanJW, Take a look here NEW M.. This year.. This Fall.... I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
lct Posted August 7, 2015 Share #262 Posted August 7, 2015 I have a Sony Nex 6 which supposedly has a "superior" EVF than the M240. That may be true in terms of resolution, but frankly that's not my biggest gripe with EVF's. The problem is the loss of live view while the shot is being recorded, and a certain lag until the real-time image comes back on line. [...] My Fuji X-E2 has no significant lag in single shot mode, with M lenses at least. In continuous mode (3 or 7 fps), the view freezes for less than half a second roughly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 7, 2015 Share #263 Posted August 7, 2015 Well, half a second is quite a while for shutter lag. At least it is after the shot on an EVF, and not before, like the old Visoflex - now that was a bit akward geting an on-the-moment shot, not to mention lens droop with heavy lenses.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpavich Posted August 7, 2015 Share #264 Posted August 7, 2015 My Fuji X-E2 has no significant lag in single shot mode, with M lenses at least. In continuous mode (3 or 7 fps), the view freezes for less than half a second roughly. Well...that's why folks go to rangefinders because 1/2 second right at the precise moment you should be "following through" is a big deal. (in my opinion) I love fuji cams...I've had an X100S, an X100T, X-T1, X-E2 and though they are fine cams..they all suffer from the blackout and smearing in the EVF. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ai_Print Posted August 7, 2015 Share #265 Posted August 7, 2015 -Higher mega pixels would be nice but I prefer more ISO performance. I know what you mean, I want better performance from the inches / centimeters on my ruler...:-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted August 7, 2015 Share #266 Posted August 7, 2015 Well, half a second is quite a while for shutter lag. [...] Reason why i shoot in single shot mode generally. The cam can be used pretty well like an M camera then... w/o rangefinder though... there is no free lunch. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpavich Posted August 7, 2015 Share #267 Posted August 7, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) Reason why i shoot in single shot mode generally. The cam can be used pretty well like an M camera then... w/o rangefinder though... there is no free lunch. Lol...not if you're referring to the Fuji cams. They all black out, and that's the one vital difference in a rangefinder. (as you know) so yes...they are better than other cameras probably, but still...shutting your eyes at the moment you swing the bat isn't cutting it when you want a home run. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Livingston Posted August 7, 2015 Share #268 Posted August 7, 2015 I really don't understand these latest comments... LCT said that there was "no significant lag in single shot mode, with M lenses at least" and "In CONTINUOUS mode (3 or 7 fps), the view freezes for less than half a second". Lets look at that more carefully... If we are talking about 'the decisive moment' then we are talking about taking a shot and being very aware indeed of all the elements in the picture at that moment of the shutter firing... This is where a rangefinder camera has an advantage in there is no loss of picture at that moment... Now look at the comment from LCT again... he is saying that on his Fuji there is NO SIGNIFICANT LAG when using the camera the way we would use an M... therefore the idea of any loss of live view when the shot is being taken is clearly not much of an issue... at least not in the case of the Fuji. Surely we are suggesting that a revised Leica should be able to at least equal this? The half second delay that Jaapv and rpavich are calling an issue with is on continuous mode... and frankly, if you are firing on continuous mode anyway, you are not really looking for a 'decisive moment' shot are you... you are just hoping for the elements to come together in one of the frames... the complete antithesis of what you are suggesting is the ideal... Seems to me that people just like picking up on comments that support their previously held prejudice and ignore any comment that might disprove them... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted August 7, 2015 Share #269 Posted August 7, 2015 Lol...not if you're referring to the Fuji cams. They all black out [...] No. As i wrote above (twice) there is no significant lag in single shot mode with M lenses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpavich Posted August 7, 2015 Share #270 Posted August 7, 2015 The half second delay that Jaapv and rpavich are calling an issue with is on continuous mode... and frankly, if you are firing on continuous mode anyway, you are not really looking for a 'decisive moment' shot are you... you are just hoping for the elements to come together in one of the frames... the complete antithesis of what you are suggesting is the ideal... Not in my case. I'm talking about the lag of any EVF at the decisive moment. I've owned a half dozen Fuji cameras (as I already said above) and they ALL black out at the moment you need them not to...it's the nature of the beast. (and why I'm shooting with an R-D1x.) Now we can argue how long this blackout is...or how much we do or don't mind it but the fact is..it exists in SINGLE shot mode. So does smearing of the view in "lowish" light and fast camera movement on ALL of the Fuji cameras with EVF's. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpavich Posted August 7, 2015 Share #271 Posted August 7, 2015 No. As i wrote above (twice) there is no significant lag in single shot mode with M lenses. Well..I say that there is. It's impossible that there is no blackout at the time of shutter release; and my own first hand experience proves this out. (fuji lens or adapted lens, either way) If you don't "mind" this blackout...then more power to you...you can say it's "insignificant" or whatever you like...that's cool. But it does exist and to me, it's significant as compared to a piece of clear glass with no black out. Not to mention the smearing in low to lower light that happens on ALL of the Fuji's. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted August 7, 2015 Share #272 Posted August 7, 2015 OK so for you there is a significant lag and for me there is none. May i ask if you've ever used a Fuji X-E2 together with an M lens? Just curious. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Livingston Posted August 7, 2015 Share #273 Posted August 7, 2015 Another argument for a hybrid electronic rangefinder/optical viewfinder if that is the case for you. That would be my preferred option on a new M series camera anyway. Best of both worlds. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted August 7, 2015 Share #274 Posted August 7, 2015 Provided the optical VF is as good as that of the M240 though... Remains to be seen... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpavich Posted August 7, 2015 Share #275 Posted August 7, 2015 OK so for you there is a significant lag and for me there is none. May i ask if you've ever used a Fuji X-E2 together with an M lens? Just curious. Not an M. (and I dont' see what brand has to do with it) I've shot Voigtlander, Zeiss, Fuji, Minolta Rokkor, and others that I can't remember...dozens and dozens of adapted lenses. There IS blackout...however "non-bothersome" you find it. I've shot with an X-E2, and an X-T1, and all of the X100 cams. Unless there is only a piece of clear glass you are looking through (OVF of the X100S and X100T) then there is a blackout...that's not debatable or in question) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted August 7, 2015 Share #276 Posted August 7, 2015 I still think that Leica M is a good cure for gas. It's slowly working with me. In which case a speculative new M thread with an opening post that's obviously a joke is hilarious. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ai_Print Posted August 7, 2015 Share #277 Posted August 7, 2015 No. As i wrote above (twice) there is no significant lag in single shot mode with M lenses. Not sure about the Fuji cameras but with the M240 not only is it not significant, I find it not even perceptible. In one case of a photo I made of a dancer jumping off a piano, the timing was as such that his foot is 1/2" inch above it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted August 7, 2015 Share #278 Posted August 7, 2015 Not an M. (and I dont' see what brand has to do with it) [...] I said (thrice...) that the lag is not significant for me with M lenses. I don't know how to say it another way... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted August 7, 2015 Share #279 Posted August 7, 2015 Not sure about the Fuji cameras but with the M240 not only is it not significant, I find it not even perceptible [...] You mean in RF mode i guess, but with EVF it is another story... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpavich Posted August 7, 2015 Share #280 Posted August 7, 2015 I said (thrice...) that the lag is not significant for me with M lenses. I don't know how to say it another way... You don't need to keep saying it. I agree...for YOU...this amount of blackout is acceptable...I have no quarrel with that. But it DOES exist and is the argument for a rangefinder style viewfinder. You don't need to keep saying that you don't mind it...I get it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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