Why Leica? Why, Leica?

[thighslapper]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

To be honest, failure of calibration constitutes faulty goods and the dealer should replace the item and THEY should sort out the problem with Leica. 

 

Any good dealer should do this, as long as it's brought to their attention promptly. My dealer replaced both my T and recently a Zeiss 35/1.4 within 24hrs .....   and arranged collection of the faulty items ...... that's how it should be done ...... and as a result they have a loyal customer they can trust who doesn't p*ss them about .....

[EoinC]

This was my first Leica experience (246 + APO Summicron 50), so I have no idea what normal Leicabuy procedures are. The dealer provided a charged battery and SD card. I took some shots in the shop at various ISO's, using rangefinder, Liveview, and EVF. Magnifying to 10x, the area of focus was so sharp, you could pin a tail on it and call it a weasel (apologies to Blackadder). I then proceeded to drain the wallet and walked out a happy camper. Same process as I've used for buying non-Leica digital cameras in the past.

 

I agree that we should be receiving quality goods, and that the dealer should handle any relevant arising issues - My check is mainly to see that I'm not going to have any surprises when I get home, as I really don't like shopping as a sport. If I rejected an item because of a defect at the pre-buy check, I would expect that the dealer / distributor would address it with the manufacturer, rather than fawn it off to the next customer, so the "opened box" theory must relate to serial window shoppers, who would normally be satisfied through using a demo.

 

When I buy a new car, I take it for a test drive before handing over the lira, which may be slightly more effective and revealing than sitting in it going "brum brum". Others may have a different approach.

[M28]

I don't know how it occurs but let me speculate imaginatively. 

 

I would think that to properly test every single camera properly would take 2-3 people about 30 minutes for the first 50, you take note of what never needs adjusting and largely ignore those things except by sporadic random checks on the next 50.

 

you have here say 4 days of checks

 

and then do the next 50 at 20 minutes

 

and then the next 50 at 10 minutes and I don't think you can speed it up much more then that. 

 

Thats is if you are doing the quality checks 

 

in reality however 

 

if you are pumping out say 100000 other units of the M240 per year and the special editions and the m-e editions plus all the lenses that also require that detail of checks it's clear then you need an army to do all those quality checks.

 

i somehow don't think it happens that way

 

i suspect a camera is tested a day and 50 get their card signed based on the quality check of the one camera which gets sent to somebody who writes reviews on a popular blog. The rest go to stores worldwide based on some other relationship criteria that Leica has worked out over the years. 

 

The business assumes that the cameras are perfect when they leave, they trust the manufacturing processes, if Leica did a proper audit of how much it costs them to have cameras come back and be repaired at their pace, maybe they would reconsider, or start charging for returns. The reality however is that once Leica have the money and you have the camera, their risk has completely diminished . It's when the cameras are sitting on the shelves that they worry. That's when the price drops. The prices have been increasing which means that sales are still growing.

 

if tomorrow a company produces a camera that's better then a Leica at a fraction of the cost,  then Leica will quickly match that other cameras price. There is their risk.  Good luck trying to beat Leica at their game however. 

 

You (not referring to anybody in previous posts) may think they are not doing a good job, but what you don't understand is that they are doing an excellent job under their constraints and are risking everyday, far more then you pay for all your equipment. Yet it's your money and you too worked hard for it. This we all try understand to. 

 

I think that the reality of the situation is that there are many Leica employees that just make a normal salary for Germany or Portugal standards and are happy to work in a place that at least really does place emphasis on quality. I don't think there is much profit on each camera. Sure the owner makes some money, the design engineers and serious technicians are well paid. The operation is super expensive and the profits are probably not that high,  but the owners make more from selling shares in the company for the really big millions. Do they deserve this? Yes they do. They were the ones that risked their fortunes on a dream and turned it into reality. Had they failed and were sitting in the street asking you for ten bucks for a plate of food would you give that to them? They worry about their employees and their families as well as their own families. The dealers also need to make money, nobody is going to invest in a camera store unless they have at least a 50% mark up on the products they sell. 

 

Then the new shareholders begin trying to recoup their investment in the shortest time possible because after they have overpaid they realise it will take many more years then they expected and that their investment was not as good as it was purported to be.  Everyone gets squeezed to produce more at lower cost, quality suffers and then Joe Blog in the street has to put up with a poorly calibrated rangefinder. Nobody is happy, well unless you managed to be the someone who took a risk and never took a haircut for the risk. 

 

if you don't like the quality, and the risk that comes with buying the product, the choice is not to buy it. Alternatively learn how to fix it, or start your own company and do better then Leica does, or buy leica company and do what you think should be done. 

 

The world is imperfect, 

 

The best thing to do is to take your 10000 euro buy a Leica Lens and Camera, if it works, fine, if it doesn't send it back and buy another one immediately, if you can. If another one appears While yours is in repairs just buy it. when your one comes back tell the dealer to sell it slightly cheaper as a model that was returned but is now the quality checked reliable one. Take a few hundred Euro hit and keep taking pictures. Enjoying yourself. Everything is resolved in the end anyway. 

 

you will loose less nerves and sleep this way and the way these things depreciate don't worry you will loose your money anyway. 

It's not an investment it's a pleasurable past time, a hobby or a documentation of joy in your life that happens for a very short time.

 

There is a very short period of time to be spent between when you beat millions of others racing out of Bagdad and when they start chucking soil on the wooden box with your trusty Leica still around your neck. It all gets resolved in the end, take some pictures instead and get a good dealer, they are rare these days too.  

[LeicaFFM]

From what I hear, many calibration problems are the result of having to ship the cameras and lenses across the globe.

The mechanical elements in a Leica a very delicate and some shipping services are just not as careful as they are supposed to be.

[thighslapper]

The original m9 assembly video shows that there are multiple calibration checks at various stages and must be done to ensure sensor alignment and that the optical rf mechanism works correctly. As a hand assembled product this has to be done. If I had to speculate on a reason why there are some RF miscalibrations I would guess it is due to an assumption that the adjustment is still correct after tightening the near point lever adjustment screw and adding locking compound. In my experience final tightening can alter the adjustment and unless you check again afterwards you can get caught out.

 

Also, if you have tried self adjustment you will realise that adjusing the near point also changes the infinity point, and vice versa, so you either adjust incrementally with the compensatory adjustments to each get smaller and smaller till you get to a point where both are correct..... or you overshoot on one deliberately knowing that this will then be brought into correct alignment when you then readjust the other. Unless you check near and infinity adjustment results carefuly after each, you can easily leave it just about right but not perfect. 

 

Although Leica state this is now partly automated I suspect this means that they are using focus peaking instead of focussing by eye as they did before, and computerised asistance ... but there is still human intervention in the final part of the process. It is a fundamentally quite crude mechanism and exact adjustment is really fiddly and takes care and patience. It usually takes me around 20 minutes ..... but a fair bit of that is running upstairs to check infinity out of the window ..... and it is not unusual to have to re-do it even though I was convinced things were spot on .........

[helged]

Thanks for the views and feedbacks; much appreciated!

 

I do understand that the M-system is complex in many ways, and that a manual and labor extensive production line implies that misses can and will occur. So given that some - likely only a few - of the many bodies and lenses that enter the market have deficiencies, I still think it is not totally unreasonable to ask for a quick repair cycle.

 

If other copies are available at the local store or can be arranged within a reasonable time, a switch can and should be made, but this is not always the case, at least not for the early birds.

 

So Leica; why not offer a fast repair cycle for items that are off out of the box?

 

Several months repair time for a rangefinder adjustment on a brand new body is, in my humble opinion, an unnecessarily long waiting time...

[Bill Livingston]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Given that according to the Consumer Act the customer is entitled to a replacement or a refund by law, why would anyone in the UK (or Europe) accept a new camera is sent away for service rather than replaced???

 

Leica or their representative (the retailer) cannot, under any circumstances, argue that a refund or replacement is unavailable if a camera proves to be faulty or 'not fit for purpose'... Quite simply, it is breaking the law.

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/contents/enacted

 

So no, I don't open a box in the store. I know that if I am not perfectly happy, the shop MUST replace or refund.

 

You should check you consumer law in your country. Most retailers have the barest grip on the rights of customers and many just do what suits them and costs them the least amount of money. The fact is, if you are not totally happy, you are completely within your rights to ask for a replacement or a full refund (and even costs involved in returning the faulty or unsuitable goods).

[helged]

Given that according to the Consumer Act the customer is entitled to a replacement or a refund by law, why would anyone in the UK (or Europe) accept a new camera is sent away for service rather than replaced???

 

Well, I did...

 

Actually, one motivation for this thread was to argue for a change in the handling from Leica's side if (when) something is wrong with a new item rather than actively enforcing customer's rights. With some understanding and a standard procedure from Leica's side – notably a quick repair cycle for brand new items whenever possible (and rangefinder adjustment certainly belongs to this category), otherwise replacement or refund – the story would be nothing to spend time on.

 

Anyway. After the body has been sitting for 9 days at the national Leica dealer the body was sent to Germany yesterday. The national Leica dealer has put "urgent and express" on the shipment - so I will report back what this means in terms of days or weeks or months once the body is back.

 

Until then; enjoy photography!

[thighslapper]

As one of many who have self adjusted the rangefinder I find it hard to believe that Leica cannot devolve this skill to one of the main Leica dealers in most major countries. 

 

Closing down Milton Keynes in the UK was really a step too far ..... and Leica Mayfair in London are now doing some basic digital camera adjustment and repair..... which is to be welcomed .... but not enough....

[helged]

Just to let you know that I have received an M246 on loan from Leica during the repair of my recently purchased M246. Thumbs up from my side...!

[helged]

Follow-up, part I:

 

I today received M240 and 50APO from repair at Leica (sent in for repair in mid April). The M240 had defect digital numbers in the viewfinder and the rangefinder was slightly off, both defects present when the body was purchased new almost 2 years ago. The APO50 was sent in for check/modifications of the much-discussed loss of central contrast in the early versions of the lens.

 

According to Leica, the following modifications were done to the M240 body: Replace lens detection; fix carrying strap loop; replace cover plate; adjust sensor; clean sensor; Firmware Update; adjust range finder; clean range finder; adjustment of all parts; cleaning and end control. Everything is now - as far as I can tell - fully functioning/adjusted. And the sensor is the cleanest I have ever seen on any digital M. Very good!

 

The 50APO has been modified as well with the Leica wordings: Repair focussing mount; Optics reflexes; Adjustment of all parts. Its far too early to conclude on changes to the image quality/characteristics, if any.

 

The M246-body with misaligned rangefinder is still at Leica (this will be update number II...).

 

And by the way: The M246 that I received on loan before the vacation has been working wonderfully well; capturing the French Alps during hikes and leisure time during day and night.

 

And with one M-body in-house, its time to return the M246 on loan to Leica.

[Herr Barnack]

From what I hear, many calibration problems are the result of having to ship the cameras and lenses across the globe.

The mechanical elements in a Leica a very delicate and some shipping services are just not as careful as they are supposed to be.

That was my first thought. 

 

Cargo jets produce ultrasonic vibrations in flight, which our M cameras are subjected to for hours on end - and sometimes experience hard landings.  Trucks hit potholes in the road.  Shipping containers are battered when the ship they are on plies rough seas or must steam through violent storms.  To be honest, it is a miracle that any of us received our M240, M-P or M246 with a perfectly calibrated rangefinder. 

 

I am 2200+ miles from my Leica dealer, so a test drive is not an option.  So far, every piece of M kit I have purchased has arrived at my front door in immaculate condition and perfect working order.  This is no mean feat IMHO.

[indergaard]

That was my first thought. 

 

Cargo jets produce ultrasonic vibrations in flight, which our M cameras are subjected to for hours on end - and sometimes experience hard landings.  Trucks hit potholes in the road.  Shipping containers are battered when the ship they are on plies rough seas or must steam through violent storms.  To be honest, it is a miracle that any of us received our M240, M-P or M246 with a perfectly calibrated rangefinder. 

 

I am 2200+ miles from my Leica dealer, so a test drive is not an option.  So far, every piece of M kit I have purchased has arrived at my front door in immaculate condition and perfect working order.  This is no mean feat IMHO.

 

I'm sorry, but if a camera costing $7000 is to fragile to be shipped in trucks and airplanes then something needs to change.

The packaging for the cameras are excellent. The box is then re-packaged into another box, then many boxes are wrapped together with plastic and wrapped to a pallet. Even if the airplane has a rough landing, or if a truck hits a pothole, the camera should be able to take it just fine. And if this is NOT the case, then, well, it is a faulty design. And if the camera is so fragile then it needs to be shipped differently, packed better, or something else.

And if the rangefinder design is so delicate, then I question the need for such a high quality build on the camera body otherwise. It's built like a tank but can barely take a sneeze? pointless.

 

Bumping an M directly into a coffee table or something similar is much worse than a rough landing or a pothole while the camera is wrapped up in multiple boxes. Coffee tables haven't changed my rangefinder calibration at all yet. Then again, the calibration has never been perfect either on the new cameras either, so what do I know.

[AlanJW]

I am 2200+ miles from my Leica dealer, so a test drive is not an option.  So far, every piece of M kit I have purchased has arrived at my front door in immaculate condition and perfect working order.  This is no mean feat IMHO.

If you live in NYC you can go over to the Leica store for a tryout.   Or scores of dealers.   I live in a suburb and buy cameras primarily (but not exclusively) from a local dealer because of easy walk-in exchange if necessary, and try-outs where needed.  I also like to think I am doing my part to support local business -- even if it means I pay hefty sales taxes.

[jaapv]

That was my first thought. 

 

Cargo jets produce ultrasonic vibrations in flight, which our M cameras are subjected to for hours on end - and sometimes experience hard landings.  Trucks hit potholes in the road.  Shipping containers are battered when the ship they are on plies rough seas or must steam through violent storms.  To be honest, it is a miracle that any of us received our M240, M-P or M246 with a perfectly calibrated rangefinder. 

 

I am 2200+ miles from my Leica dealer, so a test drive is not an option.  So far, every piece of M kit I have purchased has arrived at my front door in immaculate condition and perfect working order.  This is no mean feat IMHO.

Actually the 240/246 are designed to minimize the effects of vibrations and bumps on the rangefinder mechanism. The weak spot was the fulcrum and fork mechanism for vertical alignment - that was changed to an excentric screw. Together with some other changes the mechanism is very robust. It shows - for an M  to arrive at the customer maladjusted is a rare thing nowadays.

[Guest]

On reading all these posts this morning there's a couple of things that come to mind.

First Leica is still a relatively small camera manufacturing company that makes high end, ( price, design and quality ), photographic tools. To believe that each camera is thoroughly hand checked and signed off prior to shipping is perhaps a stretch.

I do believe that a Leica is more "hand built" than most other cameras out there, so the human element must occur more often than in more automated manufacturing. So, mistakes will happen. Sometimes, albeit rarely, some things will be out of whack out of the box.

 

What I try to do when buying yet another Leica product, lenses or bodies, is to purchase a good used or demo' for a Leica dealership and insist that it's been checked over by and warranted by Leica. That way you know that at least there's a much better chance that the camera you get is one that has been properly "factory checked" and serviced before it's in your hands. If and when I buy privately, ( rarely ),  I factor in the cost of having the gear checked out by Leica before I agree to the purchase.

 

The only new Leica I've bought these past ten years or so has been my 2013 Leica MM. That did have some initial shutter problems that were sorted quickly at Leica USA via the dealership, and now a couple of years later the sensor went "bad" and so it's currently at Solms for replacement. I was offered the "trade-up" deal to the M246, but preferred to stay with the MM for various reasons. Nice to have the offer / choice though.

 

Leica does stand behind it's customers more than any other camera maker of whose products I've used professionally and that's been a very important factor in my four decades or so of M ownership. 

[helged]

Thanks Peter for your summary and experience!

 

I think many Leica-users acknowledge the complexity and manual work put into Leica cameras and optics, and that issues can and will occur, also out of the box. I accept this. In many ways I view Leica as an instrument; and instruments need repair, calibration and adjustments now and then.

 

My problem is/has been the long waiting time for - for instance - getting adjusted a misaligned rangefinder on a new body. Here I would think that Leica could have a quick(er) route so that new items could be fixed and returned within reasonable time, a few weeks, say.

 

I expect to pick up the M246-body with misaligned rangefinder today, 2 months after it was sent to Leica from the national dealer (and I sent the body to the national dealer 1+ week before that). Whether 2+ months are quick or not can be discussed, shipping, custom clearance and paper work will inevitably take some time in both ends, for instance. And I guess that the Leica labours have had a summer vacation as well...

 

Nevertheless, my wish is a scheme where newly purchased items can be sent in, being fixed and returned without too long delay. That being said, I appreciate that the national dealer provided me with a perfectly working M246 during my summer vacation.

[Guest]

Hello Helged,

 

well I guess if Leica was a large enough company to be able to train and support more service technicians the wait for a repair to be sorted wouldn't be too horrible. But it's not a large company and as it is I believe they do the best they can with the service/repair recourses the company can afford to maintain.

However if they would enable a scheme to allow some category of repair or pro' users to have a "loaner" camera for the duration then perhaps the long wait for one's camera to return from service would be more bearable.

Bravo to your dealer for stepping up as they did and providing you a "loaner"while your M246 was away….They earned your business in the right way.

[helged]

After the pick-up of M246 earlier today, quick tests show that both M240 and M246 have now perfectly calibrated rangefinders. Very good. And based on Jaap's comment, I do trust that the rangefinders will remain calibrated for an extended period of time...

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[BerndReini]

My M9 was from the very first batch. I sent it to Leica once for a "dead pixel column" calibration. It had a perfectly calibrated rangefinder when I first got it and I have never had to adjust it. It is still spot on after many airplane and car rides.