phantom Posted December 12, 2014 Share #121 Â Posted December 12, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) go to the dealer with the problem of the sensor or write to Leica using Channel Customer? what action do you recommend? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted December 12, 2014 Posted December 12, 2014 Hi phantom, Take a look here Leica Upgrade program for M9 ( corrosion of sensor). I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jaapv Posted December 12, 2014 Share #122 Â Posted December 12, 2014 Your dealer is always the one to consult. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
phantom Posted December 12, 2014 Share #123 Â Posted December 12, 2014 in the meantime I have sent a request similar to Leica customer service. they replied almost immediately. as a response saying that probably will be made by February cleaning or replacement of the sensor. meanwhile asked the serial number of the machine. the dealer does not have spoken. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted December 12, 2014 Share #124  Posted December 12, 2014 but at some point you have to recognise the problems of the past and consider how much of a mug I must be if I continue to buy these products.  I understand this feeling. While I am still happy with the outcome, and it restores my faith somewhat, in some ways, the points you raise are valid and ones that concern me too.  I think I may always buy a digital rangefinder, as and when I need one, because I like them, but I do need to consider the implications of ownership for a couple reasons. Firstly for relying on the cameras for professional use. While I've managed OK, I wouldn't be truthful with myself if I was to say it wasn't a concern. I have 20 years and older cameras that haven't even had one service which function flawlessly. My 3 year old Leica has had a couple of repair trips to Germany already, now needs another...there are just too many surprises.  Also, the gear is expensive and the track record does leave me feeling shaky. I have so many perfectly functioning dead camera systems that cost a fortune when I bought them. Now they are not even worth selling, let lone wether or not I would find buyer for them. I sorta feel this could go the same way.  They are tools, and my work covers the cost of them but £30K can very quickly turn into a low-worth item, or worse, a no-worth item. It's something I've become acutely aware of after owning all these dead systems and this last event made me wonder if that was going to happen really quite quickly...  I think it's sort of a drug, or like falling in love with the wrong person. While it is a lot of fun and gives you something special, makes you feel good for a while, at the same time it's not entirely working, or not good for you for what ever reason. I'm not sure how I feel about it to be honest.  I have enough faith that Leica are making good on this, that is great, but I'm not sure I have enough faith, at this point, that the investment is a good one, longer term. If I buy a 240 or the following one, will it just be as unreliable? or worse, doomed and end up another worthless system collecting dust? I don't think that the history of the film M is something we can bank on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bocaburger Posted December 12, 2014 Share #125 Â Posted December 12, 2014 I think most people underestimate the technical challenges to produce a Digital M-Mount camera. Ten years ago statements were made that a Digital M was impossible because of the short flange to film distance. Â Let's back up a bit here. Prior to 2007, I was sitting here with several high quality M lenses and wondering if I'd ever be able to use them. The business trend had already pushed me to go fully digital several years earlier and I had put together a full Canon system for use in my photography business. Then along came this amazing little camera, the M8, Â Gents, let's not re-write history here. The Epson R-D1 predated the M8 by approximately a year. And it suffered much less IR contamination than the M8. And aside from the rangefinder tending to need frequent adjustment, it proved to be a very reliable camera. Â I am not trying to compare it to the Leica's. Nor am I unaware that it was basically abandoned by the manufacturer and unrepairable today unless someone has a parts-donor camera. Just pointing out that Epson was the one who proved that a digital M mount rangefinder was not "impossible". Much the same way Konica was the one who proved that an electronically-timed shutter with autoexposure (not to mention a motorized winder) would fit into an M-mount body without increasing dimensions or changing form factor. Which at the time Leica was saying was "impossible". Again, the Hexar RF was not in the same fit-and-finish league with the M7, and Konica is gone and the RF is unrepairable. So this is not bashing Leica, just keeping things historically accurate. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenshacker Posted December 12, 2014 Share #126 Â Posted December 12, 2014 Gents, let's not re-write history here. The Epson R-D1 predated the M8 by approximately a year. And it suffered much less IR contamination than the M8. And aside from the rangefinder tending to need frequent adjustment, it proved to be a very reliable camera. . Â The RD-1 used the same sensor used in the Nikon D100 and had a 1.5x crop factor. It's much easier to make a camera with a high crop factor than one that can gather light at high angles of incidence. The M8 of 2006 has a 1.3x crop factor, still a compromise. The M9 was the first with a full-frame sensor. I still keep a look on the forums and Ebay for an RD-1, prices are still ~$900 or so. It certainly retained a lot of it's value. What the RD-1 sensor did not have: offset microlenses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted December 12, 2014 Share #127 Â Posted December 12, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) If anything, I think it's the independent thoughts of forum members (loyal users) that helped prompt Leica to ultimately do the right thing. (That and the obvious need to make a prudent business decision in the face of brand erosion). I don't think the policy just announced by Stefan Daniel would have happened nearly to the same degree, nor with the same speed, without the informed 'backlash' here (and I'm sure behind the scenes by some of the same folks). But 'trial by internet' was not a particularly pleasant affair to witness with some wild opinions stated and dressed up as facts and some of the same complainers posting elsewhere, I assume in order to pile on more pressure. So sure it put pressure on Leica, but if Leica hadn't moved quickly and come up with an option which appeased, it could have become a substantial problem regardless of whether the statements made were correct or otherwise. And actually we know no more about the sensor problem now than we did when it started - but Leica have agreed to a course of action which apparently negates this for most users. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bocaburger Posted December 12, 2014 Share #128 Â Posted December 12, 2014 The RD-1 used the same sensor used in the Nikon D100 and had a 1.5x crop factor. It's much easier to make a camera with a high crop factor than one that can gather light at high angles of incidence. The M8 of 2006 has a 1.3x crop factor, still a compromise. The M9 was the first with a full-frame sensor. I still keep a look on the forums and Ebay for an RD-1, prices are still ~$900 or so. It certainly retained a lot of it's value. What the RD-1 sensor did not have: offset microlenses. Â Yep, well aware of the R-D1 and how it differs from the M8. I had one. It also had no automatic keying of frame lines. But it did have an LCD that could be reversed for hiding and protection. And analog guages. It was a different camera in a lot of respects, I said "I am not trying to compare it to the Leica's". My point was merely that the Epson was the first digital M-mount rangefinder when Leica was still steadfastly insisting it was "impossible". The sensor was from the D70 btw. Â Whether it was the relatively quick "possibility" of a digital M, or of an autoexposure film M, or the implementation of this very satisfactory resolution to the M9/M9P/MM/ME sensor issue, in these instances Leica appears to be reactive vs proactive. That's not necessarily a slam btw. Few companies react to customer feedback at all, let alone as quickly and conscienciously as Leica. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenshacker Posted December 12, 2014 Share #129 Â Posted December 12, 2014 The D100 and D70 use the same CCD, Sony ICX413AQ- at least according to DPREVIEW. Â Anyway- I still think the full-frame digital cameras from Leica are a triumph, and plan to be using them for a very long time. I like the precision of the instrument. Just finished converting a 1936 Sonnar to Leica mount. The lens had never been opened, you can tell from the paint and the marks on threads. The inner retaining ring had been cross-threaded. "Destroyed in removal", fortunately I had a spare retaining ring. Mechanical devices are much easier to fix than electronic. But I know a technician that still repairs Tek 2465B's. Â I can't think of many companies that stand behind their products as Leica has demonstrated here. This isn't the first product that had a design compromise produce problems after the release, but is one of the few to offer a remedy to the customers without charge. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
otto.f Posted December 12, 2014 Share #130 Â Posted December 12, 2014 I have the impression that Leica doesn't know if there is a remedy (that does not affect the M9 character of the image) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
amusong Posted December 12, 2014 Share #131  Posted December 12, 2014 One thing that is not yet clear is whether or not Leica is replacing the sensor with exactly the same unit. Problem therefore not solved?  The sensor in my M9 has now failed TWICE and is dead right now. My problem has not been subtle corrosion but a complete and sudden failure of the sensor unit both times. See photo.  If I send it back will I just be getting another identical sensor? Will it fail again?  I would like some clear idea that Leica understand what is going on with these sensors and they have actually solved the problem so that when I send it in for repair this time it stays repaired. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/244082-leica-upgrade-program-for-m9-corrosion-of-sensor/?do=findComment&comment=2727039'>More sharing options...
DigitalHeMan Posted December 12, 2014 Share #132 Â Posted December 12, 2014 One thing that is not yet clear is whether or not Leica is replacing the sensor with exactly the same unit. Problem therefore not solved? Â Â Â The sensor in my M9 has now failed TWICE and is dead right now. My problem has not been subtle corrosion but a complete and sudden failure of the sensor unit both times. See photo. Â Â Â If I send it back will I just be getting another identical sensor? Will it fail again? Â Â Â I would like some clear idea that Leica understand what is going on with these sensors and they have actually solved the problem so that when I send it in for repair this time it stays repaired. Â Â I think it is pretty clear based upon comments from Leica that they will be replacing with the same type of CCD sensor as before, until they find a more technical solution. Â It's also pretty clear that your problem is a different one, and is probably out of the scope of Leica's latest announcement. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenshacker Posted December 12, 2014 Share #133 Â Posted December 12, 2014 Amusong- that problem does not look like a sensor failure, but looks like a problem with the electronics board. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
povlj Posted December 12, 2014 Share #134 Â Posted December 12, 2014 Danke sehr, Michael. But how do I know if my sensor is bad? How does a bad sensor show up in my pictures? Spots? Whole picture foggy, or what? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fangdike Posted December 12, 2014 Share #135  Posted December 12, 2014 I Love to shoot with my M9. Indeed, expectations of supreme product quality was a factor for my buying decision. In my opinion Leica's replacement offer is not satisfactory!  They say it's important for them to deliver technically faultless products. They say they concentrate now their efforts on finding a permanent technical solution. This means that they haven't found it so far! Consequently all sensor changes which they do right now will lead to new problems in the future and this is in my opinion negligent behavior. They do not say that future sensor changes will be handled free of charge as well.  This will further devaluate our M9's as this time bomb will sell only on massive discounts.  I checked what they call an "attractive upgrade option" for a M240 with their service dept. The offer is certainly attractive for them, but to pay a difference of more than € 3k is not acceptable. I mean the upgrade option is my offer to them to get rid of their problem and not the other way around. Considering the fact, that with the launch of the M-P, the M240 is not the latest model anymore and probably subject to an replacement with the next Photokina, I would expect a significantly better offer.  Originally I had planned to buy more lenses in the near future, but due to the current situation I put any further purchase on hold. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted December 12, 2014 Share #136 Â Posted December 12, 2014 But how do I know if my sensor is bad? How does a bad sensor show up in my pictures? Spots? Whole picture foggy, or what? Â See examples at Leica M9 users report sensor corrosion issue: Digital Photography Review. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted December 12, 2014 Share #137 Â Posted December 12, 2014 Will it fail again this way? Highly unlikely I would say. That it failed this way once is rare, twice virtually unknown, three times? I would advise you to take up a career as a gambler.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted December 12, 2014 Share #138  Posted December 12, 2014 I checked what they call an "attractive upgrade option" for a M240 with their service dept. The offer is certainly attractive for them, but to pay a difference of more than € 3k is not acceptable. I mean the upgrade option is my offer to them to get rid of their problem and not the other way around. Considering the fact, that with the launch of the M-P, the M240 is not the latest model anymore and probably subject to an replacement with the next Photokina, I would expect a significantly better offer.  Yes, you are right, that is a very attractive offer for them. "More than € 3k" is quite a way towards the current retail cost of a new M240 (£3,999) – a price you can pay without having to let go of your M9 in part exchange. You'd think when taking into account the factory cost of an M240 and also bearing in mind the cost to Leica of fitting new M9 sensors they could come up with something more attractive. I guess it is a complicated matter as Leica presumably do not want to effectively devalue the M240 by providing too attractive an offer and in the process upset their dealers (as they apparently did when providing the 30% lens discount in the wake of the M8 recall) who currently have plenty of stock sitting on shelves. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
getiton Posted December 12, 2014 Share #139 Â Posted December 12, 2014 See examples at Leica M9 users report sensor corrosion issue: Digital Photography Review. Â so far i have only seen pictures taken with faulty sensors. has anybody managed to take a picture of such a sensor? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
amusong Posted December 12, 2014 Share #140 Â Posted December 12, 2014 Well Jaapv, let's see. Sensor failure twice is not "virtually unknown" it is "known"....it has happened to me. Â Leica have clearly acknowledged they have problems with M9 sensors. Â It is quite possible that there is a significant sleeping issue out there. My M9 was purchased relatively early in the model's life and has now had time to go through two sensor failures. Others are experiencing sensor issues. As more time passes what will happen? Â Sensors are being replaced with identical types of sensors as far as I can make out. If this is a problem that develops over time, then I cannot see how it will go away by simply renewing the issue with the same sensor. In fact that way of solving the problem has the potential to perpetuate itself and grow further in a way that may become very difficult for Leica to handle long term (not good for any of us). Â I am grateful for Leica's forthright acknowledgement of the problems and gracious acceptance of liability, however, am very concerned that Leica's approach may not solve the problem but perpetuate it. Â I know you think a second failure is unlikely but I do not think it is any more unlikely than a first failure if they just replace sensors with the same units (think about it). It happened to me. It could happen to you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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