cliveruss Posted January 29, 2015 Share #1 Posted January 29, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) "Full aperture" is a good reason to have Leica lenses, but I find that I like to use a normal lens closed down to ƒ/16 for greater depth of field when making some landscape photographs. I do not have an Elmar or slower lens. I would like to know if there is any difference between the stopped down image from a Summicron (fifteen years old) or a new Elmar. I wonder if the simpler design, fewer elements, of the Elmar may be better at small apertures. Has anyone noticed a difference? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 29, 2015 Posted January 29, 2015 Hi cliveruss, Take a look here ƒ/16 with a 50mm Summicron or Elmar. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jedi996sps Posted January 29, 2015 Share #2 Posted January 29, 2015 Sorry, i do not have those particular lenses so cannot comment directly. But, every lens has an aperture (optimum) at which it will be sharper than other apertures. I had it in my mind that it was around f8, but looking through this interesting read, for the 50mm summicron and elmar, the optimum aperture is 5.6. http://www.overgaard.dk/pdf/Leica-M-Lenses-Their-Soul-and-Secrets_en.pdf Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted January 30, 2015 Share #3 Posted January 30, 2015 My 50/2 v4 and 50/2.8 v2 are at their best around f/8 and diffraction is detectable at f/16 but overall results remain very good there with a slight advantage for the 50/2 on edges and corners. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliveruss Posted January 30, 2015 Author Share #4 Posted January 30, 2015 Thank you. Puts tells us what we already know, that the lenses are best at medium apertures. Thank you, icf, for the comparison at ƒ/16. It is not what I expected but good news. Now I wonder if an Apo Summicron would be better than my old Summicron at ƒ/16. I suppose it does not matter because the cost of the upgrade is higher than any benefit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted January 30, 2015 Share #5 Posted January 30, 2015 [...] I wonder if an Apo Summicron would be better than my old Summicron at ƒ/16 [...] Haven't tryed mine at f/16 yet but diffraction can hardly by avoided at this aperture so i would not have bought it to be used at f/16 certainly. See Leica's new 50 mm - A New Benchmark in Optical Performance, Design and Mechanical Excellence Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
uhoh7 Posted January 30, 2015 Share #6 Posted January 30, 2015 I see a large variation of performance at f/11 between many of my lenses. It's a big deal if you like landscapes, and usually overlooked in user reports. My best lens at these small apertures is the 28cron, or so it seems anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
01af Posted January 30, 2015 Share #7 Posted January 30, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) Do not—repeat: NOT—let all that techno-babble about diffraction hold you back from using f/16 for pictures that need deep depth-of-field. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliveruss Posted January 31, 2015 Author Share #8 Posted January 31, 2015 I see a large variation of performance at f/11 between many of my lenses. It's a big deal if you like landscapes, and usually overlooked in user reports. My best lens at these small apertures is the 28cron, or so it seems anyway. Thank you. Yes, smaller apertures appearance is usually overlooked, but important. I use large format cameras and need to close down to ƒ/32 even with camera movements. Diffraction is obvious from about ƒ/9 in the aerial image, but not on film, or I should say that the advantages of the dof are worth the disadvantages of diffraction. My local dealer, Levine's in Boston, does not have an Apo Summicron to lend me. I would like to see a quarter of an image, center to corner, made with an Apo-Summicron at ƒ/16, focused at about ten feet and showing infinity. The same for a current Elmar. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
otto.f Posted January 31, 2015 Share #9 Posted January 31, 2015 If you ask for this there is a risk that people's thus far unknown sensor corrosion turns up Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 31, 2015 Share #10 Posted January 31, 2015 Thank you. Puts tells us what we already know, that the lenses are best at medium apertures. Thank you, icf, for the comparison at ƒ/16. It is not what I expected but good news. Now I wonder if an Apo Summicron would be better than my old Summicron at ƒ/16. I suppose it does not matter because the cost of the upgrade is higher than any benefit. Actually he tells us that the diffraction limit varies per lens. For instance the APO 280/4.0 R is at its best wide open. Which is irrelevant for real life photography. The requirements of the image take precedence. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted January 31, 2015 Share #11 Posted January 31, 2015 Time ago (with M8) I toyed with some lenses of mine (not all.. ) fully closed : I remember distinctly that the venerable Hektor 2,8 cm 6,3 was, at f 25, not so different than wide open, while, of the ones I tested, it was the Telyt 280 that suffered a most significant drop of resolution when closed to 22... so as the Hektor 135 (f32) .. Elmar 50 wasn't so bad. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tobey bilek Posted February 2, 2015 Share #12 Posted February 2, 2015 I have used a 50 3.5 red scale at 22 and it was very good. Perhaps the round diaphragm has something to do with it. With most lenses, they are not computed/manufactured well enough so that wide open works well. Medium apertures mask some defects, but diffraction sets in at small stops. Leica APO lenses work remarkably well wide open and often show no improvement upon stopping down. Diffraction does set in however eventually. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sblutter Posted February 5, 2015 Share #13 Posted February 5, 2015 The 1st consideration has to be the optimal aperture for the intent of composition > print. You're hopefully trying to communicate something more interesting than a lens test. People that say I only use this f:storp or that ISO are totally missing the point of photography in general. Cameras have just a few settings - use them creatively in furtherance of your vision. Its not about the camera or the lens. Its about how you're going to translate what you're looking at into something a viewer may be moved by. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exodies Posted February 7, 2015 Share #14 Posted February 7, 2015 I would like to see a quarter of an image, center to corner, made with an Apo-Summicron at ƒ/16, focused at about ten feet and showing infinity. I couldn't find a very distant infinity but try this. This picture was taken with an M typ 240, APO-Summicron-M 1:2/50 ASPH. The camera was mounted on a tripod, the exposure was 1/90th second at f16 ISO 200. The focus point was just over 3 meters away. The Lightroom detail settings are Sharpening amount 25, radius 1, detail 25, masking 0 Noise reduction luminance 0, colour 25, details 50, smoothness 50 Lens profile corrections are enabled. Apart from white balance, all the other controls are flat. The export resized the image for the forum rules and was sharpened to a standard level for screen. This is a top left quadrant crop of the image so the focus point is in the bottom right corner. Now, what was it you wanted to see? Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/240446-%C6%9216-with-a-50mm-summicron-or-elmar/?do=findComment&comment=2761022'>More sharing options...
pico Posted February 7, 2015 Share #15 Posted February 7, 2015 I couldn't find a very distant infinity but try this. This picture was taken with an M typ 240, APO-Summicron-M 1:2/50 ASPH. The camera was mounted on a tripod, the exposure was 1/90th second at f16 ISO 200. The focus point was just over 3 meters away. The main subject is unacceptably soft to me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted February 7, 2015 Share #16 Posted February 7, 2015 At a 3m subject distance, sharp results were expected from 2m to 7m more or less. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted February 7, 2015 Share #17 Posted February 7, 2015 The focus point was just over 3 meters away. I can see with the foreground that this may need finessing, but the general rule of where you start from (so not all the time) is that you focus on something one third of the way into the scene to get the best spread of DOF. This is because the DOF is very roughly split 1/3rd in the foreground and 2/3rds towards the background. It is a very old rule when focusing for maximum DOF, but in most cases still applies. So in this case as a wild guess I'd say stop it all the way down and focus on either the second or third bollard from the left. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
platypus Posted February 7, 2015 Share #18 Posted February 7, 2015 So....I took this just the other day, in horrendously bright midday sunlight and therefore, for the first time in a year and a half of owning the lens, selected f16 on the APO 50. Other stuff: 1/250 sec. medium red filter, ISO 320/M Monchrom and focussing on the legs of the horse in the centre, handheld. I am an instinctive rather than technical photographer but I was pleased with the foreground sharpness and overall DOF. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/240446-%C6%9216-with-a-50mm-summicron-or-elmar/?do=findComment&comment=2761152'>More sharing options...
Exodies Posted February 8, 2015 Share #19 Posted February 8, 2015 I think my photo has been misunderstood. I took it using the recipe specified by Cliveruss though I'm not sure what it was supposed to illustrate. However the scene is very pleasing and I appreciate the tips on how it should have been taken; I'll go back and take it as a picture not a lens test. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliveruss Posted February 8, 2015 Author Share #20 Posted February 8, 2015 Thank you Exodies. That is exactly what I want to see with the Apo-Summicron 50mm. The image looks soft to me, but that is on my computer screen. If you were making a 50cm wide print from this image (the whole image), does the diffraction blur the fine details even in the focused part of the image? Does the snow look like chalk? If you are able to describe the image quality as you see it on your screen, I would find that helpful, or a print would be even better. Do you think the image quality is any better than the image from an older Summicron-M 50mm, both at f/16 of course? We know your new lens is better at f/2. I am still curious to see if the Elmar-M would be better than either Summicron at ƒ/16. The Elmar would be a less expensive option if it is any better. I have found that at f/16 with my old Summicron-M 50mm that the image quality is excellent for a small print, but at 50cm wide, it is not very good, looks fuzzy, so I use a larger camera where even at f/32 on a 4x5 camera, the diffraction is not so destructive. The Summicron-M at ƒ/5.6 does quite well for a 50cm wide print if I don't need the dof. You can see some of my images at: monadnockregion - Page 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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