Very low light theatre / stage photography: suggested back-up camera for M9??

[250swb]

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First, you say that I am doing something wrong. Then you say but it doesn't matter because that is a technical detail and it is the gestalt of the photograph that counts--at least that is what I interpret your words to mean. Please read mine very carefully. I said, that first and foremost, ISO is a matter of personal taste. I am tired of people on photography forums telling other people what they should like and not like. You have your taste. I have mine.

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I just came across this recent article by Steve Huff. He's not the greatest photographer in the world, but he has a good intellectual perspective on soft photographs, image quality, and using the Monochrome at 10,000 ISO. Clearly he was not defeated by the situation he found himself in..........

 

A night with the Leica Monochrom at ISO 10,000 | STEVE HUFF PHOTOS

 

 

Steve

[jaapv]

I would be careful with this and other recommendations--test before using. I shoot in night clubs and concert halls. For me, get above 3200 and I am not happy. I have used the Monochrome, Canon 5D, Mark III, M9, and the M. I usually use a summicron (2.0). High Iso acceptability is in the eye of the beholder. Even if I am on target with the focus, I find the images become unacceptably soft.

Maybe the word soft does not quite cover what you mean? Grainy, yes, motion blur yes, limited dynamic range, yes, colour shift (not so much on Leica, fortunately), yes, but not soft.

[sanyasi]

Maybe the word soft does not quite cover what you mean? Grainy, yes, motion blur yes, limited dynamic range, yes, colour shift (not so much on Leica, fortunately), yes, but not soft.

 

Yes. Most likely motion blur combined with wide open lens. To get any sort of image, it is sometimes necessary to shoot 2.0 and 100 or 125. When you have a bass player or saxophonist rocking it is difficult to capture a clean shot or even pre- focus on a particular spot. The darkness obscures where the subject is in relation to the spot. The effect to me is still a soft profile, but I don't use the term as in soft lens.

[sanyasi]

Here is an interesting article about high ISO and light quality. Unfortunately, the solution offered is various artificial light, which often is not allowed in theaters and clubs.

 

What Photographers are NOT Considering When Using High ISO

[bocaburger]

Slightly OT but I just got a Panny ZS40 for concert photography. Obviously no comparison to an M9 or 240 but it looks like a pocket P&S and nobody cares if I sneak it into a concert. It's got an equivalent 24-720 (yes, 720, not a typo) lens, built-in EVF, OIS, shoots RAW, and has manual focus w/peaking. There's also supposedly an app that lets it offload to a smartphone so uploading to socal media can be done on the spot.

[ynp]

Hello,

 

I have been shooting circus shows as a long term personal project.

 

I use my Leica M9 as my main stage camera with my Konica 50/1.2 or Summiluxes in the same mode, you described.

 

The second camera is a Nikon Df, used with several longer AF lenses. The 16 mp. sensor in the Df is fantastic, it is almost the same as they have in the Nikon D4. I do not have problems with focusing of the DF in low light. I use the AF assist on my Nikon 9-series strobe ( no light on, as a commander), it allows a very reliable autofocus at the distances up to 3,5 meter in near darkness, even with dark zooms at f4. The Nikon D4s would have been better, but it is too big and expensive. I spot meter the faces, lock the exposure in manual mode and shoot, the theater mode of the D810 is not needed in my view. The Df is not a noisy camera, much better than the D3s or 5D3.

 

The Sony A7S is a low light miracle and works very well. I used the Sony only for one night and still learn the camera and I do not own any AF lenses yet. I hope that I will get to know the camera soon and my M9 will be used at daytime backstage. I like that the A7S has a silent shutter, very convenient.

 

Yevgeny

[topoxforddoc]

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I must say that I try to shoot gigs, plays and dance at film/sensor speeds from days gone by. I hardly ever shoot at above ISO800, and usually no more than ISO400 hand held, no flash.

 

Certainly for gigs, there is usually enough light to get the shots I need from the usual 3 songs at the beginning of the set. My kit has usually been my 2 DMRs with a 50/2 and my favourite 180/2. Recently I have supplemented this with my M9 with a variety of lenses (usually the 50/2M, 75 lux and sometimes my 35 pre-asph lux or 15 CV).

 

Unless the set is really dark and dingy, I don't find I need any more. I don't mind a bit of motion blur from the artist in some cases. For instance, I always shoot drummers at 1/30 - 1/45th sec (Yup even with the DMR 180 cron) to catch the movement of the sticks - no different to shooting prop planes like a Spitfire - 1/125th or slower, otherwise the prop stays still and the shot looks like a model aeroplane. OK, I don't have so many keepers, but I get a more dynamic shot.

 

Here's Billy Cobham, the great jazz fusion drummer, taken this year on my DMR 180/2 at F4 at 1/45th sec ISO 400.

 

And a modern dance show from 2009 at the Royal Ballet, Sadlers Wells in London DMR 50/2 at F4 at 1/90th sec ISO 800

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[ShawnK]

I've had pretty good luck w/Nikon D800e.

[simonpj]

Thanks Charlie. Very nice. It puts things in perspective to see such great results from the DMR.

 

I've certainly found that the M9 works beautifully for the great majority of stage situations where there is some kind of direct lighting. It's just situations when the action is happening in little or no direct light that really challenge it.

[simonpj]

I've had pretty good luck w/Nikon D800e.

 

Do you have any examples of theatre or stage work you could post, Shawn? I'd be very interested to see.

[topoxforddoc]

Thanks Charlie. Very nice. It puts things in perspective to see such great results from the DMR.

 

I've certainly found that the M9 works beautifully for the great majority of stage situations where there is some kind of direct lighting. It's just situations when the action is happening in little or no direct light that really challenge it.

 

If there's no light, then the image will be really flat with minimal contrast. It's really hard to make an interesting picture with zero flat light, irrespective of how sensitive your film/sensor is. If it's that low, then even the audience will find it hard to see the action. Shooting from the dark side is fine, as you will often get a silhouette of the face with contrast to make it interesting.

 

If it's really dark with no contrast, I don't even bother to shoot the scene.

[tomlianza]

Hi,

I own an M9, Nikon D800e and Fuji X-t1. I have attached an unedited file from the X-T1 from a pub in New York City. This is an ISO 3200 image at 1/35 sec f1.4. The gals were lit with a few accent lamps and the exit sign in another wise a very dark bar. The fuji's can provide very good dark performance. I have found the M9 relatively worthless in theater venues. I run a theater group so I do a lot of imaging in the venue. The D800e is an easy performer. What blew me away was the high ISO performance of the Fuji bodies I own. The fuji bodies have a high quality M->X adapter and I have used the Leica lenses with great success with the edge phase focus. In bright sunlight, I would always reach for the Nikon or Leica. But the Fuji cameras are an excellent value and they have excellent dark performance. This image has been down sized for upload, no sharpening or other processing.

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[DBX]

I shoot for a college drama department from time to time for portfolio and marketing and understand the problem.

 

I use an M9 too for great effects (35mm and 50mm summiluxs, now 60mm Konica). The solution for me is to shoot during a dress rehearsal using my own Elinchrom Quadra A and Ranger A flash lights arranged around the stage. For 'low light' mood shots, I reduce the number and direction of focus of the Elinchroms.

 

Clearly not suitable for gigs and live shows etc, but ideal for the purpose and no problem with noise /low speed etc etc.

 

Word of warning, the Sony A7's are slow to manually focus and the A7R for certain has an annoying blur effect when using non native OIS lenses, possibly even when glued to a slab of rock! The A7S maybe better using the electronic shutter / low pixel count and worth considering if you primarily want to shoot video as well and really can't use lights.

 

Hope this helps someone.

[simonpj]

Word of warning, the Sony A7's are slow to manually focus and the A7R for certain has an annoying blur effect when using non native OIS lenses, possibly even when glued to a slab of rock!

 

Appreciate the warning about Sony A7 focusing. Some people are clearly happy with focusing them in low light with legacy lenses, but I'm sceptical about my own ability to replicate the speed, reliability and instinctiveness (I'm never aware of thinking about focusing) that years of experience have given me with focusing Leica M's, even in the lowest of light.

 

Some of the other options do stir my curiosity, but I'm leaning towards just switching from the M9 to the M 240, which looks as if it will provide acceptable results in all but the worst lighting, where the real limiting factor is the pictorial quality of the lighting rather than sensors' ability to record.

[chris_tribble]

Some of the other options do stir my curiosity, but I'm leaning towards just switching from the M9 to the M 240, which looks as if it will provide acceptable results in all but the worst lighting, where the real limiting factor is the pictorial quality of the lighting rather than sensors' ability to record.

 

Sounds like a good move. The M-240 works for me (though I always take along a 5D2 + 70-200 IS f2.8 when I'm doing stage work as there are times when you need the reach).