First year and front cap, LTM Summicron 5cm?

[ironringer]

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Could the collectors and historians kindly tell us when (what year?) the first screwmount Summicron 5 cm (collapsible) lenses were sold?

I believe the Leica serial numbers list shows Summicrons manufactured as early as 1951 (ref. Erwin Puts list for lenses), but other references (e.g. Leica Pocket Book) show the Summicron as first produced in 1953.

The June 1953 Leica NY Price List shows the Summicron 5 cm lens (SOOIC, 11016) priced at $183.00. Does it appear in any earlier price lists?

Also, what front lens cap was provided with the first Summicrons?

There are many styles of postwar Leica lens caps - has anyone compiled a styles vs dates list?

[luigi bertolotti]

The story of Summicron design, development, industrialization is long, complex and fascinating (remember that there was the "intermediate" Summitar* ....with a Thorium glass coming from an ENGLISH glasswork... Wetzlar lab wasn't yet ready for production) : one of the best deep articles about is the one from Marco Cavina, with many details also related to timing, and to the famous issue of "radioactive glass" .

 

http://www.marcocavina.com/articoli_fotografici/50mm_Leica_a_telemetro/00_pag.htm

 

In terms of timing, is better to forget the usual s/n <--> year reference.... Leitz was working at full production speed in those years... they assigned s/n to production batches, some of them for "assessed" lenses (the usual Elmars etc...) ready to made, some others for lenses (like the Summicron) in development phase... to say, they decided in 1951 to assign a huge batch of numbers (10.000) to the new Summicron... which was still in final development stage : probably not ALL the 10.000 numbers were used, and WHEN the lenses with those numbers were actually SOLD TO PUBLIC is all another matter. I have never seen a catalog dated 1952 which includes the Summicron (its patent was filed in USA in December 1952) : as you say, 1953 has to be considered the year in which the first items (in screw mount, of course) did reach the normal distribution channel... how many were in the hands of people who now we'd call "beta testers" prior than 1953 is unknown... but they were probably many (in the hundreds, thinking of the relatively high numbers of Summitar* ... 80-100). Is worth noting that many books do couple the events M3 intro + Summicron intro as a single announcement, which by any evidence is not true.

 

About the lens' cap, I tend to think that the std. "A 42" chrome lens cap ORQDO/14031 was probably introduced with the Summicron itself, which led to the standardization of this measure (39mm filter / 42mm cap) for many lenses... no lenses with this standard existed earlier than Summicron, and is easy to verify that some were modified to this standard AFTER the Summicron intro (Summaron 35 f 3,5, Elmar 90 f4, Hektor 135 f 4,5). Personally, I have also a curios and uncommon E39 screw-in chrome cap ("Leitz" in black paint) ... don't know when it was marketed.

Edited July 6, 2014 by luigi bertolotti

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[UliWer]

Luigi is right.

 

The "Informationen für den Fotofachhandel", a Leitz newsletter for Leica retailers in Germany, announced the Summicron "to appear soon" in No. 11 from May 1953. The text says, that deliveries were planned to begin in second half of May 1953. So the US-pricelist from June 1953 seems to be up to date and one should not expect that it was sold much earlier.

 

The newsletter also lists the accessory: ORQDO was the cap (costing 1,50 DM).

[luigi bertolotti]

Luigi is right.

 

.... The text says, that deliveries were planned to begin in second half of May 1953. ....

 

Fun to think of the number of threads/posts... if only the NET and the LUF would exist in 1953...

 

"The bokeh of the Summitar is better !!!"

"I can't use anymore my set of A36 filters !!!"

"It's collapsible...but a LOT thickier than the Elmar, when rectracted !!!"

"Leicarumors reports of an odd issue of radioactiviy !!!"

"Why so YELLOW the coating ?"

"Are you sure I can use my NOOKY ? Or I need a NOOKY-HESUM ?"

" Imho the Sonnar f2 for Contax is still a step forward..."

Edited July 6, 2014 by luigi bertolotti

[ironringer]

Thank you responders, for this intriguing information about the first type of Summicron. So they apparently were first sold in 1953, not earlier, and only test samples were made in 1951-52, IF several dozen of the factory-assigned serial numbers reported by Erwin Puts (over 3,000 numbers assigned before 1953, if I understand the tables) were actually used for "Summicrons".

This is interesting enough that perhaps we can collect serial numbers of early screwmount Summicrons, to locate the earliest example in our community's hands.

My LTM Summicron is not a very early one, s/n 1115335 from late 1953. As you see from the pictures it has typical problems of small scratches (in both the coating and the glass surface), a light-medium level of interior haze (close inspection with an illuminated magnifier shows hundreds of tiny oily dots making a cloudy-milky effect, probably lubrication outgassing), and stiff aperture and focus mechanics. Because of the side illumination, the "c" picture shows apparent haze that is much worse than the reality; actually the lens looks pretty clear when looking through it normally, with just a faint sign of fog-haze.

Still, none of these optical faults are visible (to me) in negatives or scans of a test roll of colour print that I shot, outdoors, with wide apertures. In my limited experience, lenses have to be seriously faulted before the effects are visible - the optics are quite forgiving, especially with film.

In hopes of restoring my "classic lens" to original performance, I have sent it to Focal Point in Colorado for their complete service, including taking apart the elements, coating removal, and re-coating. This costs twice the price I paid for my Summicron! I will report on the service results in late summer.

Who has earlier LTM Summicrons, and what use results can they report?

Does anyone have a Summicron with a 6-digit serial number, from 1952?

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[ironringer]

To follow up - the lens cap with my late 1953 Summicron is a chrome, "specially marked" style as shown. This style (possibly the ORQDO as mentioned in the 1952 Leica newsletter?) was probably provided for a short time until the regular A42 size caps (same design, with raised round center and smooth edge) replaced the specially-marked front caps.

I believe these specially-marked "Summicron" front caps are much less common than the regular A42 caps, because they rarely appear in auction listings of Summicron lenses.

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[luigi bertolotti]

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Yup, a very interesting and unusual cap... thanks for the picture, I have never seen one with the "Summicron" name inside...

 

I have not a "6 digits" Summicron (but anytime I see one for sale I am a lot tempted...also because "9xx.xxx" is the only sequence I miss between 1xx.xxx and 2.2xx.xxx )... my one is 1.043.366, not so old, though a number assigned in 1952. I am sure that some forum members do have 9xx.xxx Summicrons... just let's wait for JC Braconi to read this thread...

Edited July 7, 2014 by luigi bertolotti

[pico]

Yup, a very interesting and unusual cap... thanks for the picture, I have never seen one with the "Summicron" name inside...

 

The typeface seems out-of-period to me.

[luigi bertolotti]

The typeface seems out-of-period to me.

 

Who knows ...Not so different from the "Summicron" on the contemporary ITDOO hood... the "font style" is the same, letters are a bit wider... but on the hood they are engraved, so it's logical they are thinner... it is in excellent conditions, anyway (but it clearly has been kept with care... see the front part and the felt strip)

Edited July 7, 2014 by luigi bertolotti

[pico]

I was addressing the printing inside the cap.

[ironringer]

For those interested in postwar lens caps styles, I have observed the "SUMMICRON" marked A42 caps (first style with raised centre and smooth edge) with roughly 10% of the LTM Summicrons sold on eBay. So they are "out there" but unusual.

Knowing that NY-marked versions of some products were sold by Leica NY, it is possible that these SUMMICRON-marked lens caps were included by Leica NY with US-sold Summicrons, during the first several months. There is no way to prove that, but examination of 1952-53 Summicrons with known US-sold provenance may show a trend.

A search of eBay's recent sales of LTM Summicons show some with 1952-53 serial numbers, the earliest ones I see: 1024161, 1042007, and 1043242.

Are there any very low 7-digit Summicrons in our community, 1000xxx, the "million series"?

[jc_braconi]

Yup, a very interesting and unusual cap... thanks for the picture, I have never seen one with the "Summicron" name inside...

 

I have not a "6 digits" Summicron (but anytime I see one for sale I am a lot tempted...also because "9xx.xxx" is the only sequence I miss between 1xx.xxx and 2.2xx.xxx )... my one is 1.043.366, not so old, though a number assigned in 1952. I am sure that some forum members do have 9xx.xxx Summicrons... just let's wait for JC Braconi to read this thread...

No one under a million in my Summicron's collection,

I have 2 of those caps with the sticker inside

Dont remember from where they come but were on lens not separate.

[ironringer]

Found a couple of very early Summicrons:

An eBay seller in USA currently lists (item #121383922377) a very early "radioactive glass" LTM Summicron, s/n 921574 apparently made in late 1951.

The same seller lists item #121369247507 an early M-Summicron, s/n 993365 from mid-1952.

The inside of their front caps is not shown, so we don't know if they are marked SUMMICRON.

There probably was sales literature from 1952 or 1951 that lists these early Summicrons, because they can't all be test samples.

Any earlier Summicrons out there?

[JWPATE]

This is interesting enough that I just went and checked the serial number on my LTM Summicron collapsible lens. I have number 1024280, which is early enough to have the "radioactive" glass, though I don't really know the year of manufacture. Did find a chart though, that lists my SN in a batch of 5000 lenses built in 1952.

 

If interested, there is a Japan web link which illustrates a definitive way to identify the radioactive lenses without reference to serial number or date of manufacture.

 

Radioactive Summicron

Edited December 12, 2014 by JWPATE

[philipus]

Leicashop currently has this one and this one listed as being from 1952 and both under 1,000,000.

 

Philip

[JWPATE]

Further to the subject of caps for the early lenses, it seems interesting enough to post an image in hopes that some member may have researched the issue of that felt-like fabric inside the inner rims.

The cap on the right is from my Summilux-M 35 (from M6 of about 1997) and the cap on the left is from the Summicron 50 off my IIIf camera. The older lens would be from 1952.

The difference in the two cap styles is obvious when seen side by side.

 

Also, there is the same Summicron inside markings seen on the earlier posting by ironringer. The real focus of my attention here though, is on the that fabric inside the caps. On the older cap I need to replace it for it is simply worn-out! The fabric on the newer cap is original too, but has seen so little wear that it still fits tightly on the lens.

 

If we look at the old cap, it seems clear that the fabric used was not simply felt, because after it has right and truly worn away there is a stiffer backing remaining in the cap. It seems much more likely that the fabric was some version of velvet-like material. Also, the newer fabric on the right side cap is dark red-wine color, while I believe the earlier cap had black fabric (though it is worn too thin now to determine the original color).

 

Not such a major issue I suppose, but would sure like to make a good job of it if possible. Anyone know for sure what was used?

 

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Edited December 27, 2014 by JWPATE