Monochrom & SEP2

[profus]

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Hi,

 

I have M9P and was testing MM few days ago ( trying to convince myself I do not need it :-) ) and now I am playing with it's DNG files.

 

Used ACR as RAW converter and opened file(s) in PS CC as RGB. Then playing with it in Silver Efex Pro.

 

I have observed one strange thing in SEP2:

 

"Amplify whites" and "amplify blacks" doesn't not seem to behave the way they should ( or the way I am used to ). Specially "Amplify blacks" is almost non-responsive and doesn't have any influence on black tones. "Amplify whites" works pretty much as ordinary brightness slider and is not affecting only light tones as it should...

 

Opening any other files - from M9 or from Nikon cameras cannot replicate this

 

Anyone noticed this? Any explanation for it?

 

Thanks in advance!

 

BR / Alex

[jaapv]

I started out by using LR and SEP for Monochrom files. I stopped using it as it is too much work to stop the files from looking overprocessed in print.

Back to a clean workflow in Photoshop CC (or plain LR.) Much better results imo.

[jaapv]

Hi,

 

I have M9P and was testing MM few days ago ( trying to convince myself I do not need it :-) ) and now I am playing with it's DNG files.

 

Used ACR as RAW converter and opened file(s) in PS CC as RGB. Then playing with it in Silver Efex Pro.

 

I have observed one strange thing in SEP2:

 

"Amplify whites" and "amplify blacks" doesn't not seem to behave the way they should ( or the way I am used to ). Specially "Amplify blacks" is almost non-responsive and doesn't have any influence on black tones. "Amplify whites" works pretty much as ordinary brightness slider and is not affecting only light tones as it should...

 

Opening any other files - from M9 or from Nikon cameras cannot replicate this

 

Anyone noticed this? Any explanation for it?

 

Thanks in advance!

 

BR / Alex

You are probably exporting them from ACR at the default greyscale format. That is wrong. They should be 16-bit RGB files.

[MOZ]

Well,

 

You need time, patience and be careful to use correctly SE.

The biggest danger is to give a HDR look to your images, using presets like "high structure" can lead to bad rendering. People seems to like this look sometimes but it's really far from what you should get.

Don't try to get all the whites back and to enlighten the darks, this plus too much clarity/structure will lead in something really weird !

So i recommend to be very "light" on the effects or you will find yourself, as stated by Jaapv, with over processed images.

When mastering SE correctly, then you'll get beautiful prints (and i like to print big -> 60x80).

I work with LR + SE + PS and that's really fine for me (check my site backinblack if you want on the following link)

[profus]

You are probably exporting them from ACR at the default greyscale format. That is wrong. They should be 16-bit RGB files.

 

Nope, they are 16-bit RGB

[profus]

I started out by using LR and SEP for Monochrom files. I stopped using it as it is too much work to stop the files from looking overprocessed in print.

Back to a clean workflow in Photoshop CC (or plain LR.) Much better results imo.

 

 

Well,

 

You need time, patience and be careful to use correctly SE.

The biggest danger is to give a HDR look to your images, using presets like "high structure" can lead to bad rendering. People seems to like this look sometimes but it's really far from what you should get.

Don't try to get all the whites back and to enlighten the darks, this plus too much clarity/structure will lead in something really weird !

So i recommend to be very "light" on the effects or you will find yourself, as stated by Jaapv, with over processed images.

When mastering SE correctly, then you'll get beautiful prints.

I work with LR + SE + PS and that's really fine for me (check my site backinblack if you want on the following link)

 

 

 

Firstly thank you both for your time and answers. I am still deciding if I will buy MM and am fully aware that there's a learning curve in regards to postprocessing. So far I can see that the files are robust and it is possible to get very different looks out of DNG files...

 

I appreciate your advice on how to do it - I do. I tend to use SEP lightly, not to get HDR look. I am usually not getting whites back and enlightening blacks - pretty much the opposite.

 

And that is not behave like normal. Sliding "Amplify black" all the way to the right doesn't seem to influence black tones at all - normally by doing this just a bit to the right black tones they get deeper and more reach...

 

 

Do you care to test it?

[MarkP]

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I started out by using LR and SEP for Monochrom files. I stopped using it as it is too much work to stop the files from looking overprocessed in print.

Back to a clean workflow in Photoshop CC (or plain LR.) Much better results imo.

 

You are so right.

I can't remember the last time I used SEP for a Monochrom file.

[profus]

You are so right.

I can't remember the last time I used SEP for a Monochrom file.

 

Yes, I understand that point of view, but please let me come to the conclusion myself.

 

So far, I still like SEP and would like to use it as it is meant to be used...

 

 

Anyone willing to test it for me? I would really appreciate it.

 

Amplify Black and White sliders with MM file? Does it work as it should?

 

Tnx

[Luke_Miller]

Anyone willing to test it for me? I would really appreciate it.

 

Amplify Black and White sliders with MM file? Does it work as it should?

 

Tnx

 

Works fine as far as I can tell. Exported from Lightroom as 16 bit Tiff and ProPhoto RGB. Also works when SEP2 is used as a plug-in to Photoshop CC. What I see is that Amplify Whites pulls the histogram towards the right and Amplify Blacks to the left. Both together stretch it out. I see the same with M9 DNGs.

[horosu]

I found the results and workflow much easier using DxO 4. I usually go for the Agfa APX 100 processing, and it really is very straighforward and the results have a very film-like appearance, IMHO.

 

This original file was from the Monochrom:

 

 

And this from the M240:

 

 

I started out by using LR and SEP for Monochrom files. I stopped using it as it is too much work to stop the files from looking overprocessed in print.

Back to a clean workflow in Photoshop CC (or plain LR.) Much better results imo.

[250swb]

Yes, I understand that point of view, but please let me come to the conclusion myself.

 

So far, I still like SEP and would like to use it as it is meant to be used...

 

 

Anyone willing to test it for me? I would really appreciate it.

 

Amplify Black and White sliders with MM file? Does it work as it should?

 

Tnx

 

It does work as it should, but not as you may think it should, in that any previously converted or native B&W image imported into SEP will limit the amount of black added by the 'Amplify Black' slider.

 

To cross check I've tried this with both MM files and previously converted to B&W M240 files, and they both behave in exactly the same way in SEP and confirms what is already known about the 'Amplify' sliders and how they work. The Amplify Black amplifies any tones nearest to black supposing that you don't already have a genuine black in the photo already. As it can't make an existing black blacker it stops working. This is of course very different to starting with a colour image imported directly into SEP where the Amplify Black slider has a much greater effect, and from the top of my head it may be because it is dealing with each colour separately to make blacks, and each has a different point on the histogram at which this happens. The Amplify White slider is going to have much more influence anyway, even from an imported B&W image, because it has all the greys available (which generally pre-dominate a picture) so although it works the same way, the effect is greater. But both these sliders are for refining tone, and there are other ways to separate the blacks and whites in the image.

 

Steve

[profus]

Works fine as far as I can tell. Exported from Lightroom as 16 bit Tiff and ProPhoto RGB. Also works when SEP2 is used as a plug-in to Photoshop CC. What I see is that Amplify Whites pulls the histogram towards the right and Amplify Blacks to the left. Both together stretch it out. I see the same with M9 DNGs.

 

Thanks. I do not export from Lightroom like that - I use "Open in" LR feature to open the file directly into PS. Or I use ACR and again just open the file in PS ( still as DNG - not as tif or jpg )

 

And I definitely see almost no effect of the black slider...

[profus]

It does work as it should, but not as you may think it should, in that any previously converted or native B&W image imported into SEP will limit the amount of black added by the 'Amplify Black' slider.

 

To cross check I've tried this with both MM files and previously converted to B&W M240 files, and they both behave in exactly the same way in SEP and confirms what is already known about the 'Amplify' sliders and how they work. The Amplify Black amplifies any tones nearest to black supposing that you don't already have a genuine black in the photo already. As it can't make an existing black blacker it stops working. This is of course very different to starting with a colour image imported directly into SEP where the Amplify Black slider has a much greater effect, and from the top of my head it may be because it is dealing with each colour separately to make blacks, and each has a different point on the histogram at which this happens. The Amplify White slider is going to have much more influence anyway, even from an imported B&W image, because it has all the greys available (which generally pre-dominate a picture) so although it works the same way, the effect is greater. But both these sliders are for refining tone, and there are other ways to separate the blacks and whites in the image.

 

Steve

 

 

Now I think we are coming closer to possible explanation. That could make sense.

 

But still I think it is a bit strange. Black slider does nothing to my black tones in my MM images and white slider has influence not only on light tones, but also on the black ones... Those sliders are almost unusable to me this way...

 

Converting M9 images in SEP - they behave totally different - as they should I would say...

 

Thanks once again for your explanation - it does definitely make sense. And good to hear someone at least partly confirms my observations and that nothing is wrong with my PS, SEP or me...

 

Have a nice day!

 

Alex

[MarkP]

I found the results and workflow much easier using DxO 4. I usually go for the Agfa APX 100 processing, and it really is very straighforward and the results have a very film-like appearance, IMHO.

 

Yes, the APX 100 emulation is very nice.

[kcnarf]

Try OnOne Software's Perfect Photo Suite 8! Hasn't anyone here done that? You can get it as a stand-alone, a plug-in for Photoshop, or as a plugin for LR and Aperture, etc. It is very quick and flexible with excellent results, plus even easily does layers and masking.