Guest Gilgamesh Posted January 21, 2014 Share #1 Posted January 21, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) 10 days on the Russian / Mongolian border this past week+. Leica M240 & 4 batteries. Nikon D800 & 4 batteries. Each day I was out every day an hour before dawn, about the coldest part of the day, the Leica typically with 35/50mm lenses, always put back into my bag between shots. The Nikon & 70-200 f2.8 was tripod mounted for 90 mins+. It's not good news, at all I'm afraid. The Nikon performed magnificently, the LCD read-outs were a tad sluggish after 60 mins, the battery never dropped below around 75% even after 100+ shots in these extreme temperatures. The M240 twice lasted less than 10 shots. Warmed up, the battery was actually 90%. On occasions she lasted 30 mins, maybe 25 shots before "bc" appeared. Then died. More than twice the Leica took a sequence of completely black images, yet the playback showed the settings, but no images. LV was used but I assumed it had packed up on the first "black slide" incident as it too was black. The last time was yesterday in relatively warm (-20?) conditions. I have no idea why she's shooting black images. Sometimes she shoots a "normal" image, then 10 black slides, then a "normal" image. At that stage I put the darn camera away as i don't trust it. Once, during a great final images of a boy with his reindeer the Leica picked up the shoot rate a little (I shoot on C as S is a complete waste of space), and not one, I repeat, not one of the 20-ish pictures exists, sequentially the next shot is my test shot to establish if the camera is fatally compromised in some manner. I have not the faintest idea what the Leica has done with these images. Removing the daft film-era base plate with heavily mitted hands is a non-starter. Thus you must expose flesh to metal at minus Gawd-only-knows, then you must remove the tripod mounting then the M240's recessed clip / housing to pop out the battery & re-inserting it, effecting a re-set. Less than ideal. As a professional working tool this camera falls well short of the levels of reliability and competence I expect from a £5,000 professional camera. The client is, unsurprising, less than impressed with this camera too. So, two unresolved problems exist: who can tell me why my camera is shooting "black slides"? Who can explain why, on C setting, a sequence of maybe 20 shots simply don't exist? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 21, 2014 Posted January 21, 2014 Hi Guest Gilgamesh, Take a look here M240 at -35 degrees. Field report.. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Guest jvansmit Posted January 21, 2014 Share #2 Posted January 21, 2014 I've only taken pics at around -10C. My M9 was fine for a couple of hours at a time (and kept inside my duvet jacket when not in use) but my smaller Ricoh GRD would only last a few minutes in sub-zero temps before the battery packed up. I was wary about condensation so the cameras were never taken into a warm room....quite easy as the only warm place in the house was the kang bed! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 21, 2014 Share #3 Posted January 21, 2014 Thanks for the report. I would not even have taken the M for a job like this, but my M6. It must have been a pleasant surprise that the Nikon did so well. I am sure you knew beforehand that Leica does not recommend the use of the camera in these temperatures. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
usm Posted January 21, 2014 Share #4 Posted January 21, 2014 I can't tell you why the M is shooting "black slides" but I have the same problem starting at around +1°C. I already talked to the CS - they told me that they would change the Sensor. Let's see if this will help. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 21, 2014 Share #5 Posted January 21, 2014 I might add I got a problem with "black images" yesterday. The camera also drained the battery fast. I tried downloading the card into my Mac, it was a hefty struggle to get the card recognized and copied. About every second DNG showed up as diagonal red striped on a white field. Disk Utility refused to verify the card, let alone repair it ---> dustbin. I used another SD card and all problems had disappeared... Maybe your black frame experience was card-related as well. Did you swop out cards? that might be an indication. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted January 21, 2014 Share #6 Posted January 21, 2014 I was deleting some images from my M240 last night and I found 2 black images with the image number only on them. They were taken outside with the temperature around -1º. These will not delete in the camera. I am going to reformat and wipe the card with SD Formatter. This a newish 32GB San Disk Extreme 95 MB/s card. I am not surprised at the M240’s poor low temperature performance. In the 15 years I have been using 8 different Leica digitals, not one has been a good performer at low temperatures. I had hoped that the next firmware update would be out, to alleviate the LV high temperature/switching off problem before my trip to India in two weeks time but it’s not looking promising. The FW has been on beta test for months, I do wish they would get their finger out and release it. It would also be nice for the SF-58D flash to be working properly at last. After all it’s only 18 months since the camera was announced. FW updates seem far slower than they were for the M8 and M9 Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 21, 2014 Share #7 Posted January 21, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) :rolleyes:They are waiting for a nice and hot summer day in Solms to test it... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted January 21, 2014 Share #8 Posted January 21, 2014 Ouch - useful to know, but depressing. The only good news is that winter seems to have been abolished in the UK so the chance to even use the M below 0 isn't there! I'm glad I've held on to an M6, but saddened that apparently the M isn't up to functioning in these kinds of condition. I also take your points about the baseplate. Maybe there is a need for a radical rethink of this aspect of the M come the next iteration. Maybe we need an M-C (where C is for COLD). Do any of you engineers out there know why the M should suffer this way? Too much metal? Maybe Leica needs to be looking at carbon fibre and other newer materials. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gilgamesh Posted January 21, 2014 Share #9 Posted January 21, 2014 Different cards, same manufacturer, Sandisk Ultra 64 cards x 10-ish. I also suspect all Leica batteries are not alike. Black slides a worry. Lost images even more so. Using LV more & more (it is excellent & the client likes it too) and Play Back as oft' as possible just to allay my fears. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted January 21, 2014 Share #10 Posted January 21, 2014 It is irritating that if you mount a QR plate on the bottom of the MF grip, you can just about unscrew the centre locking screw of the MF grip by gently lifting the grip as you unscrew but you can’t get it back as the angle of the screw is wrong and its angular and vertical movement is restricted by the QR plate. So to change a card or battery, you have to first unscrew the QR plate and then the MF grip and then all in the reverse order, which is time consuming. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamey Posted January 21, 2014 Share #11 Posted January 21, 2014 Come on Gentlemen, we must not criticize Leica's equipment. The man behind the red dot might try to discredit you....Lol Cheers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 21, 2014 Share #12 Posted January 21, 2014 Different cards, same manufacturer, Sandisk Ultra 64 cards x 10-ish.I also suspect all Leica batteries are not alike. Black slides a worry. Lost images even more so. Using LV more & more (it is excellent & the client likes it too) and Play Back as oft' as possible just to allay my fears. Sure is a worry - if the camera does that when inside its stated temparature range you should contact Customer Service about it. It should not do that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom0511 Posted January 21, 2014 Share #13 Posted January 21, 2014 Doesnt sound great. Even I have to say that 3 years ago my Nikon 70-200VR got stuck/stopped working(without being able to focus) in around -15 degrees during a hike. I have been using several M8/M9 in cold temperature (down to -15) but not as cold and as long as you did. I also usually put it inside my jacket when not using it. I guess its not an M6, and I would think that the thinner body of the M compared to the D800 also doesnt help, because all the inside components are closer to the surface of the camera and that way would get cold faster. I understand you are disappointed. Did you have a spare camera with you or just one body? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmradman Posted January 21, 2014 Share #14 Posted January 21, 2014 Bulk of Nikon or slenderness of Leica shouldn't make much difference, we are talking prolonged exposure. Both systems are nominally rated, like almost all commercially available cameras, for use in temperature range of from 0 to +40 degC (32 to104 F). Also batteries behave in similar way regardless of the manufacturer, same electro-chemistry. Typical advice is to keep battery warm (inside clothing), somewhat difficult with difficult access to battery compartment. It could one of these:- Sample variation - always good to test camera & SD card combination before assignment in similar environment. This is M240 thread but credit to Leica as I have very good experience with M9P during prolonged use in temperatures below -10deg C. It could be that Leica skimped on low temperature testing during the development and didn’t tweak on board electronics to operate close or at minimum voltages (voltage drop due to low temp affecting battery), instead rely on standard specification & assume only used by camera fondlers. It doesn’t help when you ask eminent electronics expert who lives in Florida to test the camera, A/C in Costco is no substitute for harsh winter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
openuser Posted January 21, 2014 Share #15 Posted January 21, 2014 I consistently experience similar behaviour anything below +1 C. I have tried Sandisk and Samsung SD cards to no avail. I have also swapped batteries, and the camera still shot black images until it is warmed up. Here's some details on the sequence of events leading up to the "black images" incidents: 0) Camera is turned on 1) Camera's auto sleep is off 2) Camera is exposed to below zero (or near zero) degrees Celsius temperature for over an hour 3) Camera is turned off 4) Camera is turned back on 5) Camera shoots black images (Live view also shows black image) At temperatures warmer than -10 degrees Celsius, I can get the camera to shoot normal images again by the following sequences: 6) Camera is turned on 7) Live view is turned on (but showing black image on LV itself) 8) Camera is turned off 9) Camera is turned on 10) Live view is automatically on (now showing image on LV) 11) Live view is then either turned off, or it remains on Colder than -10, the camera does not come back from the state until it is warmed up regardless of the above sequence. Note the camera never gotten into the malfunctioning state without turn off/turn on sequence leading up to it. The above observation holds true from +4 to -15 degrees Celsius. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thighslapper Posted January 21, 2014 Share #16 Posted January 21, 2014 I would think that the thinner body of the M compared to the D800 also doesnt help, because all the inside components are closer to the surface of the camera and that way would get cold faster. I'd have to agree with this ...... a low volume all metal body and a big volume battery stuck flush with a metal base is a recipe for rapid heating/cooling .... and it is no surprise that the M has flakey performance at both high and low temps. The only way you could really compare if the actual electronics/battery is the issue would be to put both in a freezer for several hours till the whole camera is the same temp and then compare ...... Would be interesting to try with an insulated half case and see if the results were the same .... I suspect not ....... maybe we should get Luigi to make a special sheepskin model for winter use .... nb. as above for the D800 and D4 Nikon states: Operating environment Temperature: 0 to 40°C/32 to 104°; Humidity: Less than 85% (no condensation) Leica M: Temperature: 0 to 40°C ie. none of these cameras are actually designed to work below zero ......... and if you can't keep the core components above this value they will not guarantee 'normal' function Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted January 21, 2014 Share #17 Posted January 21, 2014 On the black images, is everyone getting the image number on the middle of the black image or is this just me? Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 21, 2014 Share #18 Posted January 21, 2014 Same here Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdlaing Posted January 21, 2014 Share #19 Posted January 21, 2014 On the black images, is everyone getting the image number on the middle of the black image or is this just me? Wilson I do but the only time I get a black image is when I have the lens cap on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdlaing Posted January 21, 2014 Share #20 Posted January 21, 2014 While we are on the subject.......... Are you all using Live View or the EVF when you get these black images? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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