Info question

[thighslapper]

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Anyone contemplating a Leica M and associated lenses needs to be well aware of the balance of pros and cons when moving from any other modern digital system ........

 

Leicas great strengths are compactness, simplicity and superlative lenses with 50+ year backward compatability.

 

If you are going to miss relatively trivial things like an accurate record of the F number then there are going to be plenty of other irritants to come ......

 

At the end of the day it's the actual images that count ...... and with that I am more than happy ........

 

I regularly go on photo days with a herd of DSLR users (mostly Canon) ..... who appear to be welded to tripods with big lenses and eternally fiddling with menus...... most of the time I wander about taking handheld shots down to 1/8 sec (even with a 50mm) occasionally changing lenses, but I do not feel disadvantaged in any way ...... and when we compare results I always have a selection of shots that they completely missed because of their method of working.....

 

I occasionally hanker after a zoom lens on these days ...... and in fact have a couple of R's with adapters ...... but I just can't be bothered with the weight and size of the damn things so they get left at home.....

 

Once upon a time I was willing to hump a backpack full of gear about 'just in case' I needed it. These days I travel light and let the lens on the camera suggest the shots, rather than the other way round ...... which dictates a completely different way of thinking and working.

 

..... rather bizarrely, I feel that finally I'm in charge of the camera ....rather than the camera controlling me.......

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[Leonil]

Leonil, the last thing I intended to be is offensive or insulting; if I phrased my remarks with an unfortunate emphasis in the wrong places, then of course I apologise.

 

No need to apologise, I said the phrase "not for you" is insulting - as Im new to Leica and bought into it because of how great the glass was. But when Fans assume "you don't like it so you obviously don't get it" phrase or similar keeps getting repeated to me when I get flabbergasted about something that is unheard of elsewhere, then it becomes jarring for someone who thought great things about Leica and its community.

 

My initial shock of no coupling between the lens and the camera, to me, is very unheard of - my old Pentax MZ-50 and sigma lenses talk all the time, its from the 80s and one of the first cameras with a LCD read out... So is it unheard of for a new customer like me to be shocked that I came across none of this when purchasing my Leica? You don't expect someone buying into a new system to know everything? You don't expect to buy a car and know what kind of RAM chips are being used in the computer of the car right?

 

Im not offended by you, Im just surprised that when a legitimate question or critique about leica is raised - the "I win" comment is always "its not for you" well, that gets tiresome... just go back to film, maybe digital isn't for you? See how jarring that may get if its said over and over.

 

The F stop value is all over the meta data and I can tell by eye what F stop is used and when I have two identical images and one says F2 and the other F8 - Its really hard to explain to someone who doesn't know what "Leica" is - Im just trying to sell photos.

 

So thankyou for the apology, but Its not needed and I personally also apologise for making you think I was offended by you - I guess I have to get used to this community - there's a lot of camps and a lot of arguing I never have seen before ever.

[thighslapper]

I guess I have to get used to this community - there's a lot of camps and a lot of arguing I never have seen before ever.

 

actually it's 'healthy discussion'

 

.... although it can get a bit fractious at times .....

[hossain]

Really....

 

So when setting the f stop on the aperture ring, this is just a guess, not a precise f stop?

 

I was surprised by this too when I was researching Leica rangefinder mechanism as a newie ... but

helped me to understand how it works.

 

Basically, there is no electronic transfer of the aperture data from the lens to the camera.

[wattsy]

I've always assumed that the primary reason for having the blue 'eye' estimate the F-stop is for the purposes of making in-camera corrections regarding vignetting, etc. Seems a bit pointless otherwise.

[zeitz]

Lethprd,

 

Your Nikon only knew the aperture if you used a lens for Nikon with electrical contacts. There are millions of Nikon lens, prong and AI, that can be used on Nikon SLRs (depending on model) where the camera has no idea what aperture you are using, and Nikon does not make an estimate of the aperture.

 

Nikon and Leica could have been like Canon, requiring you to throw away all your old lenses, when the EOS system was introduced.

 

Used older lenses introduces compromise. I like the Leica and Nikon approach, but there are those who accepted the EOS requiring all new lenses.

[Leonil]

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actually it's 'healthy discussion'

 

.... although it can get a bit fractious at times .....

 

Oh I know its all a healthy discussion, but there are so many people willing to just cross their arms and say "buy another camera, go away"

 

lol

[george +]

Oh I know its all a healthy discussion, but there are so many people willing to just cross their arms and say "buy another camera, go away"

 

lol

 

There are also those who welcome all questions and concers. Do not despair.

[JeffWright]

Lethprd,

 

Your Nikon only knew the aperture if you used a lens for Nikon with electrical contacts. There are millions of Nikon lens, prong and AI, that can be used on Nikon SLRs (depending on model) where the camera has no idea what aperture you are using, and Nikon does not make an estimate of the aperture.

 

Nikon and Leica could have been like Canon, requiring you to throw away all your old lenses, when the EOS system was introduced.

 

Used older lenses introduces compromise. I like the Leica and Nikon approach, but there are those who accepted the EOS requiring all new lenses.

 

Actually, the Nikon AI lenses are capable of mechanically transferring the aperture setting to those cameras which know how to accept it via a mechanical ring on the base of the lens; that's why the aperture ring is always right next to the mount on AI/AI-S lenses. Pre-AI lenses used the aperture coupling prong to mechanically transfer the information (and had to be 'indexed' to the camera meter, in a less than fool-proof method). I haven't kept up with which Nikon DSLRs still get aperture coupled with AI/AI-S lenses, since my last Nikon was an F5, back in the days when every thought Nikon would never catch up with Canon in terms of lenses and sensor technology. Other than completely dropping Leica R when Leica stopped development and manufacture, that was my last and only change of gear for 'features'.

 

I remember at some point a discussion in the past where someone from Leica explained why they chose not to couple the aperture information in the M series. My recollection is that the principle issues were that the rangefinder focusing mechanism, together with the mechanical frame line selection mechanism, prevented a reliable method of mechanically transferring aperture information. Leica obviously new how to do this as the R lenses transferred aperture information both mechanically (beginning with the 1-cam lenses) and electronically in the ROM lenses.

 

I personally have no interest in Leica developing this technology....it won't come for free, and the cameras guesstimate is usually good enough for me.

[lethbrp]

Actually, the Nikon AI lenses are capable of mechanically transferring the aperture setting to those cameras which know how to accept it via a mechanical ring on the base of the lens; that's why the aperture ring is always right next to the mount on AI/AI-S lenses. Pre-AI lenses used the aperture coupling prong to mechanically transfer the information (and had to be 'indexed' to the camera meter, in a less than fool-proof method). I haven't kept up with which Nikon DSLRs still get aperture coupled with AI/AI-S lenses, since my last Nikon was an F5, back in the days when every thought Nikon would never catch up with Canon in terms of lenses and sensor technology. Other than completely dropping Leica R when Leica stopped development and manufacture, that was my last and only change of gear for 'features'.

 

I remember at some point a discussion in the past where someone from Leica explained why they chose not to couple the aperture information in the M series. My recollection is that the principle issues were that the rangefinder focusing mechanism, together with the mechanical frame line selection mechanism, prevented a reliable method of mechanically transferring aperture information. Leica obviously new how to do this as the R lenses transferred aperture information both mechanically (beginning with the 1-cam lenses) and electronically in the ROM lenses.

 

I personally have no interest in Leica developing this technology....it won't come for free, and the cameras guesstimate is usually good enough for me.

 

As you said, I'm sure it could be done, but I guess its one of those 'Leica' things you get used to. On the whole I'm pretty happy with the M, but one thing really bugs me with the "minimalist" thing, is their implementation of exposure compensation. The button on the front is really fiddly. Also, IMO the view finder should display the current setting, not just when you change it. More than one occasion now, I've picked the camera up not realising there was a previous Exp Comp value set from a previous shot. A seperate dial would be nice, but I guess that's going against the grain.

[pop]

…. Also, IMO the view finder should display the current setting, not just when you change it. More than one occasion now, I've picked the camera up not realising there was a previous Exp Comp value set from a previous shot. A seperate dial would be nice, but I guess that's going against the grain.

 

The flashing dot in the VF does exactly that: remind you of your exposure compensation.

[jaapv]

Actually, the Nikon AI lenses are capable of mechanically transferring the aperture setting to those cameras which know how to accept it via a mechanical ring on the base of the lens; that's why the aperture ring is always right next to the mount on AI/AI-S lenses. Pre-AI lenses used the aperture coupling prong to mechanically transfer the information (and had to be 'indexed' to the camera meter, in a less than fool-proof method). I haven't kept up with which Nikon DSLRs still get aperture coupled with AI/AI-S lenses, since my last Nikon was an F5, back in the days when every thought Nikon would never catch up with Canon in terms of lenses and sensor technology. Other than completely dropping Leica R when Leica stopped development and manufacture, that was my last and only change of gear for 'features'.

 

I remember at some point a discussion in the past where someone from Leica explained why they chose not to couple the aperture information in the M series. My recollection is that the principle issues were that the rangefinder focusing mechanism, together with the mechanical frame line selection mechanism, prevented a reliable method of mechanically transferring aperture information. Leica obviously new how to do this as the R lenses transferred aperture information both mechanically (beginning with the 1-cam lenses) and electronically in the ROM lenses.

 

I personally have no interest in Leica developing this technology....it won't come for free, and the cameras guesstimate is usually good enough for me.

You probably do not realize that all SLRs (except some ancient ones) have an automatic aperture with lens open preset. RF lenses do not, thus there is no coupling between the body and the aperture ring setting.

[lethbrp]

The flashing dot in the VF does exactly that: remind you of your exposure compensation.

 

Ah.. page 239 of the manual, I missed that, thanks. I still think they should display the actual value, much more intuitive than a very small flashing dot.

[JeffWright]

You probably do not realize that all SLRs (except some ancient ones) have an automatic aperture with lens open preset. RF lenses do not, thus there is no coupling between the body and the aperture ring setting.

 

Well, the M mount dates to the age of fairly ancient SLRs, I believe 1953 or thereabouts (the SLR having been introduced sometime in the early 1930s). Of course rangefinder lenses have no reason to need an automatic aperture, as viewing is not through the lens. Thus, the lenses could be kept more simply (and robustly) constructed, as well as smaller, by omitting an automatic aperture mechanism.

 

Personally, I find it unwise to presume what others do or don't realize and assume all who post here are fairly knowledgeable.

[lct]

There is perhaps a learning curve before criticizing old high end companies like Leica though.

[zanyviper]

Hi, being a new M240 user,,I just experienced this today also...looking through the shots I took...barely any had the f stop I had chosen on the ring...most seemed to be close...like a 1.4 shot saying 1.7 or even 2.8.....what concerns me is a couple of shots I took at F16 being recorded in EXIF as F4......that seems a little more than "within 1 stop"....

 

any thoughts?

[zanyviper]

sorry did not have time to ready all the posts.....

 

my question is...if I take a shot at 1.4....I understand the camera does not know what the lens is doing and there is no connection.....my question is...is the shot really taken at 1.4 no matter what or was it taken at 1.8 or 2.8 as the exif says......

 

sorry if it seems like a stupid question but I am a new Leica user and just trying to understand.

 

Thx

[jdlaing]

sorry did not have time to ready all the posts.....

 

my question is...if I take a shot at 1.4....I understand the camera does not know what the lens is doing and there is no connection.....my question is...is the shot really taken at 1.4 no matter what or was it taken at 1.8 or 2.8 as the exif says......

 

sorry if it seems like a stupid question but I am a new Leica user and just trying to understand.

 

Thx

 

The shot is taken at the f-stop you set on the lens. The EXIF is only a guess at what you had set.

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[250swb]

sorry did not have time to ready all the posts.....

 

my question is...if I take a shot at 1.4....I understand the camera does not know what the lens is doing and there is no connection.....my question is...is the shot really taken at 1.4 no matter what or was it taken at 1.8 or 2.8 as the exif says......

 

sorry if it seems like a stupid question but I am a new Leica user and just trying to understand.

 

Thx

 

You are asking a fundamental question about photography which is not related to Leica alone. As such a good book on the basic's would help out. But rest assured there is no way for the camera body to change the aperture from the aperture you set.

 

Full and accurate EXIF information is a symptom of the modern digital camera, and more than a taking good photograph has become an obsession for some users, but the Leica M as it stands is still a crossover between a modern electronic digital camera body but using fully mechanical lenses. So there has to be a compromise somewhere in the system regarding the aperture recorded in the EXIF, and camera to estimates the f/stop from the information provided by the light meter, the ISO, and the shutter speed assuming the exposure was accurate in the first place. So there are many variables that can affect the accuracy of the aperture estimate, some which cause it to be wildly inaccurate, for instance the camera doesn't know that you may have put an ND filter on the lens.

 

I think you are better to think of the Leica M as an electronic camera with the simple abilities of a mechanical camera, and in days gone by when there were only mechanical cameras nobody needed an EXIF file to take a good photograph, but they did know how their camera worked.

 

Steve

[CheshireCat]

Full and accurate EXIF information is a symptom of the modern digital camera, and more than a taking good photograph has become an obsession for some users

 

Symptom ? You probably meant feature.

The wrong aperture information is actually a symptom of an old camera system striving to compete with modern ones.

 

nobody needed an EXIF file to take a good photograph, but they did know how their camera worked.

 

The EXIF contains useful information about the exposure. By reviewing this information, we can understand faster how our camera works, learn from our own errors, experiment, change, and finally improve our photography.

In this sense, EXIF helps making our next photographs better.