White Balance & Adobe Lightroom

[jmourilyan]

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I am having issues with the WB value on M9-P, or rather the value that Lightroom brings the image in at.

 

I have an M9-P with firmware v 1.196. I shoot at 6000k, but when I import the image (DNG) into Adobe Lightroom 5.2 the WB setting gets altered to 4820k. I raise or lower the WB value and although there is no linear correlation between the value set on the camera and the value set on the imported image, the value assigned to the image in Lightroom is still markedly different from the value that the image has been shot at.

 

I went into Leica Mayfair yesterday and tried the following steps to isolate the cause of the problem:

1. Importing the same image into another copy of Lightroom and it produces similar results although not actually reaching the same WB value as my installation of Lightroom did. Both versions were identical (5.2), and they are vanilla installations with no import filters applied.

2. I have tried shooting at 6000k on an M9 body (provided by Leica UK) with firmware 1.196 and when importing the image it changed the value to 5200k

3. I then tried shooting at 6000k on an M-240 body and it imported at 5800k (closer but still not 6000k).

 

The results are inconclusive - is the problem in the camera (Is there a colour calibration file/setting embedded inside the camera that needs changing/updating? Is the camera writing the full metadata settings to the DNG file?) or is Adobe Lightroom 5.2 not able to import/interpret the metadata correctly and is therefore converting at a different value?

 

Has anyone else experienced the same problem? It is hugely frustrating and I'm struggling to know where to turn next. Although they were helpful and we had a long discussion about this problem Leica Mayfair weren't able to advise on next steps. I have the images from yesterday's experiments. I would like to get in contact with Leica in Germany directly but can't seem to find an email address.

 

Thanks in advance.

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[jaapv]

I don't use LR that often, but I fail to see why the exact number is so important. Surely the colour balance of the image is the important thing. Does your LR change that as well when you use "as shot" ?

[Luke_Miller]

Lightroom and Adobe Camera Raw interpret the camera's WB kelvin temperature into temperature & tint settings that are intended to produce the same color balance. The Adobe interpretation will rarely duplicate (numerically) that of the WB temperature set by the camera.

[lucerne]

My technique is to set Lightroom to "zero all settings" at import and the white balance should continue to reflect the value chosen in the camera. This ensures that every RAW image isn't pre-adjusted by LR at import. As has been mentioned, RAW files aren't affected by other "in camera settings" but LR certainly can apply (unintended and inappropriate) adjustments at import time. That's why I have an automatic reset to zero of every slider. These settings don't influence WB.

 

For WB, I don't often set the camera to any particular fixed temperature unless I'm indoors in artificial light when I set the temperature manually (via the M9 WB menu) by taking a shot through a lens cap with an inbuilt white dome. Final adjustment is made to my RAW image by selecting a neutral grey or white zone during lightroom processing.

 

Hope that helps.

 

 

EDIT: I realise that my process doesn't technically explain the discrepancy between "as shot" and LR interpretation, but it might help to isolate the source of the discrepancy. I'm not sure I understand why you would need to pre-set temperature to a fixed value. How would you decide what value to choose?

[hoppyman]

There are a couple of aspects to this. Firstly I assume that you are shooting DNG.

 

You can set the camera to use auto white balance or a fixed value. In both cases that only affects the preview shown on the LCD and writes an instruction in the file on what setting it used. That instruction does not cause any actual image data change and makes no difference at all as far as what can be set by the raw converter.

 

In Lightroom it is entirely up to you what WB setting you want to use. This is a setting you decide. In the Develop module you can leave the WB option set to 'As Shot' if you want .

Or you can 'Auto" or choose a fixed value like 'Daylight' or you can set any number you want with the temp or tint sliders or edit those numbers directly.

You can also synchronise any setting you chose there to as many other images that you want.

 

Just to repeat, in any case you can change any of the developing values as much as you want and as many times as you want with zero penalty to the DNG. Any settings are only 'fixed' into an exported version of the file such as a JPG or TIFF.

 

The short answer is this is happening because you have Lightroom set to use Auto White Balance when you develop.

My personal method is to always use Auto White Balance in the camera. Then on developing in Lightroom I start with 'As Shot'. Tht leaves the camera decision unaffected. Then I can try an Auto White Balance or I can manually sample (with the eyedropper tool) if I want to try a different result

[250swb]

I'm not clear why you shoot at 6000k unless you are trying to match a very specific light source in the preview image (which given the low res of Leica LCD's is a losing battle). In daylight or artificial light the actual temperature will changed depending on the direction you face from the sun, time of day, or indoors ambient daylight to tungsten or fluorescent etc. Accuracy can vary within a foot or two of a placed reading if you use a colour meter under controlled conditions, so even a well arranged studio setup may still work on the law of averages, but outdoors even the time of year changes the colour temperature of a scene.

 

As Geoff has said, working with .dng it makes no difference what the original camera was set to for the preview, it may be tungsten, daylight, etc., or what it defaults to when opened in ACR, you simply choose 6000k as a preference at that point. Myself I usually have WB set to Auto in the camera, then check through the options of Auto, As Shot, etc in ACR finding the closest then tweaking it if necessary.

 

But as you need a very specific value I accept all these ideas may be missing the reason for your question.

 

Steve

[Jeff S]

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Besides Geoff's points, this thread hasn't covered (unless I missed it) all the benefits of using WB/color tools, e.g., white balance card, ExpoDisc or ColorChecker, etc. Various workflows exist, from camera to print....and generally all still require user input and discretion.

 

Jeff

[elmars]

I am having issues with the WB value on M9-P, or rather the value that Lightroom brings the image in at.

 

I have an M9-P with firmware v 1.196. I shoot at 6000k, but when I import the image (DNG) into Adobe Lightroom 5.2 the WB setting gets altered to 4820k. I raise or lower the WB value and although there is no linear correlation between the value set on the camera and the value set on the imported image, the value assigned to the image in Lightroom is still markedly different from the value that the image has been shot at.

 

I went into Leica Mayfair yesterday and tried the following steps to isolate the cause of the problem:

1. Importing the same image into another copy of Lightroom and it produces similar results although not actually reaching the same WB value as my installation of Lightroom did. Both versions were identical (5.2), and they are vanilla installations with no import filters applied.

2. I have tried shooting at 6000k on an M9 body (provided by Leica UK) with firmware 1.196 and when importing the image it changed the value to 5200k

3. I then tried shooting at 6000k on an M-240 body and it imported at 5800k (closer but still not 6000k).

 

The results are inconclusive - is the problem in the camera (Is there a colour calibration file/setting embedded inside the camera that needs changing/updating? Is the camera writing the full metadata settings to the DNG file?) or is Adobe Lightroom 5.2 not able to import/interpret the metadata correctly and is therefore converting at a different value?

 

Has anyone else experienced the same problem? It is hugely frustrating and I'm struggling to know where to turn next. Although they were helpful and we had a long discussion about this problem Leica Mayfair weren't able to advise on next steps. I have the images from yesterday's experiments. I would like to get in contact with Leica in Germany directly but can't seem to find an email address.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

This is the normal behavior of Lightroom. It interpretates the color temperature different and with different values compared to the M9 and the M. And it is right, that the same temperature (6000k or whatever) in the M9 and the M leads to different values in LR. We have to live with it.

 

Elmar

[jmourilyan]

I don't use LR that often, but I fail to see why the exact number is so important. Surely the colour balance of the image is the important thing. Does your LR change that as well when you use "as shot" ?

Thanks for your response. I wouldn't worry about LR changing the actual WB value so long as it left the picture as close to the image I shot. However, I have noticed that as I import the photos LR is lowering the K value and shifting the shot into the blue/green end of the spectrum giving photos a harsh metallic feel. It was this issue that triggered my investigations.

[jmourilyan]

Lightroom and Adobe Camera Raw interpret the camera's WB kelvin temperature into temperature & tint settings that are intended to produce the same color balance. The Adobe interpretation will rarely duplicate (numerically) that of the WB temperature set by the camera.

Thanks Luke, much appreciated. As mentioned in my reply to Jaapv, I wouldn't worry about the actual WB value LR appends to the shot as it imports it so long as it kept the WB 'look and feel'. My frustration is that it seems to be shifting it down and into the blue/green end of the spectrum. I appreciate that every shot I take may require some level of post-production, but what I want to avoid is having to manually change the WB setting by some margin on every shot I take to bring it back to the image I took.

[jmourilyan]

My technique is to set Lightroom to "zero all settings" at import and the white balance should continue to reflect the value chosen in the camera. This ensures that every RAW image isn't pre-adjusted by LR at import. As has been mentioned, RAW files aren't affected by other "in camera settings" but LR certainly can apply (unintended and inappropriate) adjustments at import time. That's why I have an automatic reset to zero of every slider. These settings don't influence WB.

 

For WB, I don't often set the camera to any particular fixed temperature unless I'm indoors in artificial light when I set the temperature manually (via the M9 WB menu) by taking a shot through a lens cap with an inbuilt white dome. Final adjustment is made to my RAW image by selecting a neutral grey or white zone during lightroom processing.

 

Hope that helps.

 

 

EDIT: I realise that my process doesn't technically explain the discrepancy between "as shot" and LR interpretation, but it might help to isolate the source of the discrepancy. I'm not sure I understand why you would need to pre-set temperature to a fixed value. How would you decide what value to choose?

Thanks Gordon, and others kind enough to take time posting responses, much appreciated.

 

As a general response .... I have no specific reason for setting a particular K value apart from the fact that through experience it represented the image conditions I was shooting at the time.

What triggered my concern was that as I imported shots I started to find that the WB was being set to a considerably lower value than I'd been shooting at. There was not a direct correlation between the value shot and the value set in LR, but in each case the LR value was significantly lower.

This issue has only become evident after two events - (1) I sent my camera back to Germany to get it repaired under warranty; and (2) I upgraded to LR 5.2. Not ideal as you would like to link a single event to a single outcome, but it's never that easy :-)

 

I am shooting in DNG, and the LR WB setting on the image is 'As Shot'.

And no I'm not trying to match the shot taken with the image on the LCD screen, but a fair question.

 

Maybe Elmar you're correct and it's something we have to live with, but one would hope that a close representation of the WB value was maintained as the DNG passed through different stages of workflow (assuming there are no processing filters or similar applied).

 

Once again, thanks to everyone for your help/suggestions and time taken to respond.

 

Jim

[Luke_Miller]

I believe that if you shoot DNG + JPG you can then compare the white balance of the jpeg (which should reflect the camera WB value) to the Adobe interpretation of that value in the DNG version.

[sandymc]

In LR, you will probably find that the color temperature reading will be closer to whatever you set the camera to if you select the "Embedded" camera profile

 

Sandy

[Chuck Albertson]

The white balance settings in Lightroom are not in degrees Kelvin. It's just a linear scale.

[hoppyman]

This is the normal behavior of Lightroom. It interpretates the color temperature different and with different values compared to the M9 and the M. And it is right, that the same temperature (6000k or whatever) in the M9 and the M leads to different values in LR. We have to live with it.

 

Elmar

 

Well that gets into a more complex area involving the embedded profile from the camera (basically how Leica thinks the image can look) and how it is rendered by the profile selected in LR. You can make the image look pretty much however you want in developing of course and optionally save particular 'looks' for further use too. LR is an enormously capable tool. That doesn't mean it need to difficult to learn, just that you have a huge amount of control possible .

 

It is a good idea to establish the WB you want as your first developing step. Then you can consider the profile (the options under camera calibration) and then the other develop settings. For some custom profiles that is especially important.