sail222 Posted November 7, 2013 Share #1 Posted November 7, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hello friends, I am new to the forum. I have heard you all are very friendly and helpful here. I thank you in advance. I am interested in purchasing a Leica M3 original black paint. I have found one for sale and when I verify the serial number using your wiki site it shows this following information ..... (898001-903000 Leica M3 (black+chrom-ds}1957 5000) ...... So Im assuming that this serial batch has Chrome M3's and Black M3's produced in the same batch. So my question is .... how do I know that this Black M3 really isn't a Chrome M3 that has been painted black. Is there any more detailed information available that can tell me exactly which M3's were painted black that year? Like I said .... Thank you in advance. Henry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 7, 2013 Posted November 7, 2013 Hi sail222, Take a look here Old Leica from my grandpa .... I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
luigi bertolotti Posted November 7, 2013 Share #2 Posted November 7, 2013 Welcome to the forum! The originality of black M3 is a complicated issue... You have around 4 possibilities : 1) "official" batches of M3 black from factory (first one ought to be 959401-959.500) 2) black factory m3s intermixed in normal batches (can be the case of yours) 3) chrome m3 returned to factory and repainted there 4) 3rd party repaints And without original factory documents or a very professional inspection is very difficult to draw a sure conclusion . The SELLER,also, is an important factor: an important reknown dealer doesn't claim "factory original" if he isn't sure of Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc_braconi Posted November 7, 2013 Share #3 Posted November 7, 2013 Hi, what is the serial number from the M3 of your interest ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sail222 Posted November 7, 2013 Author Share #4 Posted November 7, 2013 Hello again .... Thanks for all the great info .... very helpful. The serial number is 899703 .... Do you have a way to look that serial number up? Thanks again Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabears Posted November 7, 2013 Share #5 Posted November 7, 2013 Hello again .... Thanks for all the great info .... very helpful. The serial number is 899703 .... Do you have a way to look that serial number up? Thanks again The very, very first Leica M3 black paint cameras were a special order for Brandt in Sweden: these were the only truly total 100% black paint M3 cameras ever made (indeed in the "normal" black paint M3 cameras there are some little chromed details). Unfortunately they are out of the serial number of your M3 camera because the very first "unofficial batch" is in the 916xxx range. So, your 899xxx it's not one of this ultra rare (and expensive!) cameras. Hope this helps, best regards. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sail222 Posted November 7, 2013 Author Share #6 Posted November 7, 2013 Thanks to all three of you. I actually got a reply from Leica USA ....... According to the reply, (below) there is no real way to verify if this M3 DS is authentic except to have it inspected by a professional. Id love to know what one of these professionals look for on the camera to tell if its authentic. Any ideas what I can look for myself? Here is the reply from Leica: Here is the answer of a top specialist in such questions: The listings of serial numbers published by Leica Camera (formerly Leitz Wetzlar) do refer to the factory shipping records. Of course the shipping department did not take note of every detail for their records, when cameras and lenses were shipped in quantities of thousands. Particulary, because in those years nobody expected information once becoming important for camera collectors. So there are original black paint cameras, which in the factory shipping records are not listed as black. Also in the published listings you do not find them for above mentioned reasons. Now, there were also records taken at the factory assembling departments. Unfortunately, those records - as far as referring to the 1950s - not all have survived. Some recent years ago, we took down serial numbers of black paint cameras out surviving assembling records. Those were not published by Leica Company itself, but given to www.cameraquest.com . There you will find a more detailed listing of original black paint Leica M3 cameras under Leica Serial Numbers: M's Sorted by Type . Aditionally, it may well exist the one or other single camera or even small group of them, which has originally been delivered as black paint - if on special order or as a "series" as those recorded as black, but just not recorded. Also, it may well have happened, that a client sent a camera in to Leitz Wetzlar or an official agency for service and requested a change of finish. Thoses cases were recorded at the factory service records, but also those are soo much incomplete today, that we can not get any informations about cameras of the 1950s. Besides the confirmed batches, there have appeared some individual early black paint double stroke M3 cameras, with black triangular straplugs and black film counter, which are fully original and do not seem to belong to a group of consecutive serial numbers. About the serial-numbers you mention, we do not have any possibilty to confirm authenticy in the sense of cameras been delivered originally as black paint. Experienced experts may well be able to help you commenting on that. By the way: If somebody changes finish on a Leica camera, this gives not a fake, if the serial-number is kept. Fakes are cameras, with which people change finish AND serial-number, giving a false identity to the camera. That´s why the serial-number as such can never verify authenticy of a camera. Imagine that besides the original camera, with the same serial number may exist one or even more fakes. Also here help of an experienced expert is needed and suggested. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted November 7, 2013 Share #7 Posted November 7, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) Essentially, a skilled and knowledged professional (better to say... a REAL expert on old Leicas) would look at three things : 1) The MATERIAL used for paint 2) The DETAILS on how and where the paint has been applied 3) What there is UNDER the paint So that...to be 100% sure, can be that the expert decides to REMOVE the paint - verify it is original... Then repaint... (I'm joking... But trust me : this is a serious section of a great forum) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabears Posted November 7, 2013 Share #8 Posted November 7, 2013 The point is this: everything that is not documented is worthless. There were not original black paint M3 in the 899xxx range, no question, because we are speaking about something that was before the first request of them (done by Brandt, it's a well known story that someone, here, from Stockolm can tell, may be), BUT, it's true that someone in a later time could have asked to make an update of a chrome camera, something that Leitz has often done (even now, with a la carte service). However without strong documentation we talk about hot air. In any case a modified camera never worth as one from an original batch (well, unless you were a celebrity). About controls: yes, we can say if it was made from original part (please post some photos, may be there are macroscopic evidences). About Records: it is true that the Leitz records are not complete, but up to '60 they are pretty much, even if on this point up to the wartime they were much complete. One more thing that the screw mount cameras had was the opportunity to further verify the internal chassis that was engraved with the serial number under the topplate: this thing unfortunately has been phased out over time. kind regards. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_livsey Posted November 7, 2013 Share #9 Posted November 7, 2013 Leica M3 Black "Official Leica lists only 1,320 made out of over 225,000 M3's." But I suspect that does not include "official" factory repaints. If you consider the price being asked and compare with a "real" M3 BP : http://www.auction2000.se/auk/w.Object?inSiteLang=ENGLISH&inC=LP&inA=20110714_1900&inO=420 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_livsey Posted November 7, 2013 Share #10 Posted November 7, 2013 Jim Lager, Leica guru once said "Of the 416 Leica MP's made in 1957 - at least 800 are fakes" Quote courtesy Tom Abrahamson. I suspect the M3 black paints are similar, noting the comment that the mere painting does not make them a fake but I would contend that passing them off as original does. A distinction to bear in mind. BTW A top class paint job costs around £1000. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sail222 Posted November 8, 2013 Author Share #11 Posted November 8, 2013 Essentially, a skilled and knowledged professional (better to say... a REAL expert on old Leicas) would look at three things :1) The MATERIAL used for paint 2) The DETAILS on how and where the paint has been applied 3) What there is UNDER the paint So that...to be 100% sure, can be that the expert decides to REMOVE the paint - verify it is original... Then repaint... (I'm joking... But trust me : this is a serious section of a great forum) Can anyone direct me to one of these "skilled and knowledged professionals" .... so I can ask him to give me some more detailed info as to what to look for before I buy this camera .... I dont want to buy the camera until Im sure its a real Leica paint job. And once again I cant thank you all enough. You guys really all have been so kind and helpful .... many other forums chase you off with sarcastic comments and ridicule. I appreciate you all !! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dreamivy Posted November 8, 2013 Share #12 Posted November 8, 2013 Halo all, I have a leica camera but i don't have any idea for the modl, can help me to find it out?? Many thanks!!!!!!! Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/217551-old-leica-from-my-grandpa/?do=findComment&comment=2460407'>More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted November 8, 2013 Share #13 Posted November 8, 2013 Sorry you don't have a Leica, you have a rather poor quality Russian fake. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hiles Posted November 8, 2013 Share #14 Posted November 8, 2013 Definitely not a Leica. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DigitalHeMan Posted November 8, 2013 Share #15 Posted November 8, 2013 If you google Wiking Leica you will a bunch of cameras like this. It is a Leica IId copy made by Wiking company, ex Soviet Union. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_livsey Posted November 8, 2013 Share #16 Posted November 8, 2013 Just to prove genuine black paint does exist earlier this was a verified example: S/N 77901x Leica M3 Black Rangefinder camera model(s) - index page The OP has not given any condition details but if they compare wear pattern and finish with this genuine low use example a better handle on the originality is possible. If the seller is claiming this to be genuine surely it is up to them to satisfy the buyer? Buyer beware should apply but if they cannot provide the expert opinion or if the price is too low to be true, it probably is not genuine. That does not make it a camera not to be purchased just one to pay the "correct' amount for. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabears Posted November 8, 2013 Share #17 Posted November 8, 2013 Ultra fake:( Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabears Posted November 8, 2013 Share #18 Posted November 8, 2013 Indeed Chris, this S/N 77901x was a special order camera: this thing should be well documented. - for sail222 "Skilled and knowledged professionals" can only say if the parts are original (for ex. there were 4 types of black paint) but they can't answer to the four "W": Who, Why, Where and When the camera was made (from spare parts?). The first step should be to ask to Leitz if they have evidence of the work (I know that till the '60 the registers are well documented). If you post a couple of photos may be that it's possible to say more. best regards. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sail222 Posted November 8, 2013 Author Share #19 Posted November 8, 2013 Yes .... Good points. The seller lives too far from me. He is an older gentleman. I do not have any photos of the camera he is trying to sell me. He is asking $6000 usd ...... I believe I will ask him to take the responsibility of having the camera verified before I am willing to purchase it. Thanks again to you all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted November 8, 2013 Share #20 Posted November 8, 2013 Definitely the bottom of the barrel as fakes go That swastika would make it a candidate for the bin for me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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