wattsy Posted February 18, 2014 Share #361 Posted February 18, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) It's more I want them to put out something I want to buy. I frankly could afford a M240 and a host of lenses, but I'm not one for splurging without reason. I am happy shooting film Leicas in a way that I couldn't see myself being with an M240.blah blah......... Well done. You've rehashed more forum cliches in one post than many manage in a lifetime. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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lct Posted February 18, 2014 Share #362 Posted February 18, 2014 ...The problem is that these days with mirrorless cameras, that niche doesn't exist anymore. There are so many alternatives now, that you have to be realistic and say that you have to evolve beyond and anachronistic design and philosophy... Anachronistic rangefinders... How long have we been hearing that? 50 years? We can still use digital rangefinders with our old and new M lenses fortunately, thanks to Leica. EVILs are just another kind of reflex cameras. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilliamsphotography Posted February 18, 2014 Share #363 Posted February 18, 2014 It's more I want them to put out something I want to buy. I frankly could afford a M240 and a host of lenses, but I'm not one for splurging without reason. I am happy shooting film Leicas in a way that I couldn't see myself being with an M240. I couldn't sleep at night knowing that all that money could have been spent on better things then camera equipment and even if I did spend it on cameras I could be doing so much more with a body made by someone else. I really liked the Ricoh GXR M module along with their GR line. It's really a direction I would like to see Leica go. One where they concentrate on creating cameras that balance film and digital legacies and the needs of photographers outside the normal DSLR market. What you said about the versatility of the DSLR is true. At the moment why bother with a digital Leica that doesn't have the versatility of the 5D MKIII, blistering AF and ISO performance of the D4, or compactness and IQ of a A7r? What would make me buy a digital Leica would be the ability to use my M glass without adapters, having great ergonomics, firmware and processing, coupled with features that translate the traditional methods of using film Leicas with the greater accuracy needed for digital work. I don't really care what people shoot. 99% of what people shoot is such garbage being annoyed by it would just drive you mad. I do think that seeing themselves as a luxury or boutique brand will kill them as a real company. I live in London, which is the urban equivalent of a luxury brand. Go to one of the swanky shopping districts and take a look at the shops. Mile upon mile of gauche trinkets that cease to have any real use other then as fashion accessories or tokens of conspicuous consumption. Look closer and you'll see behind the shiny well designed overly affected exterior the goods are junk. £10,000 handbags that have leather I wouldn't make into army boots. Gold watches that are less accurate then my cellphone. Leica risks (well has already become) one of these farcical 'Boutique' companies where the product is secondary to its status as a symbol of success. We all laugh at Hasselblad relabelling Sony cameras, but Leica does the same with Panasonic and well their own cameras always seem to be about 1 generation behind the Japanese cameras, but with a cost sometimes 5 times as much. Since the 1960s Leica has been resting on it's laurels, but somehow managed to cement a small niche with documentary and art photographers. The problem is that these days with mirrorless cameras, that niche doesn't exist anymore. There are so many alternatives now, that you have to be realistic and say that you have to evolve beyond and anachronistic design and philosophy. For me personally it is only the Leica lenses that keep me at all interested in the company. It always comes back to that. Outside their lenses Leica is a total irrelevance, but I wished they'd make a body that allowed them to make a modern system, rather then just some nice lenses to put on your better bodies from other companies. Please allow me to provide the "between the lines" executive summary: I am not a Rangefinder photographer. I don't get it, and don't mind proving it with every post. Japanese cameras are ahead of Leica in all areas other than Rangefinders … (which is what Leica makes, so Leica is ahead of all camera makers in that category, and have remained ahead). I DO like the lenses that were made for the Leica Rangefinder and wish there was a Leica camera that wasn't a Rangefinder that I could use these lenses on … one that cost the same as a mass produced camera, (which Leica has no production capability, company culture, or infrastructure to fulfill). Leica should follow the example of the Ricoh GXR line … (which was unsuccessful and has been discontinued). I AM a socialist and arbitrator of taste … I resent those foolish people who enjoy spending their hard earned money on discretionary things that make them feel special, or pretty, or happy, or unique … or whatever floats their boat, (presumably because all their extra money should be given to those less successful than them … beyond the usurious tax extractions already vacuumed from their paychecks). - Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuny Posted February 18, 2014 Share #364 Posted February 18, 2014 Several of the last few posts make me think of something Barbara recently found while doing her usual thorough research for an upcoming holiday. A visitor to a place we will go to said the light level was not as much as he hoped for but his guide borrowed his Leica camera and now the tourist has the best photos he's ever had. I suspect his Leica serves the same purpose as jewelry. That's not all bad since it helps keep Leica afloat. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted February 18, 2014 Share #365 Posted February 18, 2014 I suspect his Leica serves the same purpose as jewelry. That's not all bad since it helps keep Leica afloat. Stuart, I think it's clear from some posts on this forum that the camera is jewellery first and a photographic tool second. I'm not criticising anyone for that, why not hang a Leica from your neck instead of a necklace, or have one in your hand instead of a Rolex on your wrist. It's just funny when some people get ever so defensive about it! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted February 18, 2014 Share #366 Posted February 18, 2014 There is this false assumption that if you have an interest in aesthetic, fashion, about the way something looks then you are lacking in other areas, are shallow, simple, dim, unaware of bigger and more important matters etc. etc etc. It seems apparent to some that important and intelligent people don't have the time, nor inclination to think of such things. Also, some people believe that something that doesn't perform well, is tarted up to fool people too. I think that is often the case in some things but certainly not all. I do think that is a common misconception or belief with those that don't like Leica, or should I say Leica users. Some people think that a rangefinder is an anachronism, obsolete and therefore pointless, so buying one is surely just for the looks and for posing with it. Even if some people don't believe it, it's a common angle people use to bring someone down, belittle or get some sort of advantage over them. But it's usually in their own head, perhaps to either make sense of it, or because they want to feel better about themselves and their own decisions. For what reason, who knows, and quite frankly, I could care less. I use what I use and I like what I like. I make no excuses for I have my reasons. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted February 18, 2014 Share #367 Posted February 18, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) ...Regardless of the specs Leica doesn't make junk XV... M8... Sent from another Galaxy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJH Posted February 18, 2014 Share #368 Posted February 18, 2014 Some of these debates crack me up, I used to use Fuji and Olympus cameras but even the supposedly "junk" M8 blows all of their MILC products into the weeds when it comes to MMI design and I am not talking about the physical but the firmware and the controls it provides. You know the sort of thing one might expect huge Japanese firms to be good at rather than utterly useless. Yet we are to believe that the Leica company doesn't know what it is doing and produces irrelevant products, good grief we have some trolls onboard. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted February 18, 2014 Share #369 Posted February 18, 2014 = you hold a different opinion. Well done for raising the level of debate in such an eloquent fashion... Sent from another Galaxy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted February 18, 2014 Share #370 Posted February 18, 2014 XV... M8... Sent from another Galaxy There it goes Wasn't long in coming Both cameras produce superb pictures I guess that really rankles the haters Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted February 18, 2014 Share #371 Posted February 18, 2014 What's to hate? It's not about emotion, it's about reality. Sent from another Galaxy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 18, 2014 Share #372 Posted February 18, 2014 Gentlemen, ...please Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJH Posted February 19, 2014 Share #373 Posted February 19, 2014 = you hold a different opinion. Well done for raising the level of debate in such an eloquent fashion... Sent from another Galaxy Pottle ket black Bill. The point I made is a technical one though. As a professional systems and HMI consultant with experience of avionics design for military aircraft MMI is a subject area I know very well. Leica are IMHO pretty good at it, Olympus awful and Fuji OK. There is more to a camera than it having every feature under the sun or even the latest sensor technology, I don't think its fair personally to criticise Leica in these areas. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted February 19, 2014 Share #374 Posted February 19, 2014 So in what area is it "fair" to criticise Leica...?? In your opinion? The M8 was a stop-gap kludge - its shortcomings from UV/IR and poor manufacture to coffee stain well-documented The XV a mis-launched, over-hyped, overpriced, under-specified tinker-toy. Read my post earlier in this thread. Leica has lost it's way. I despair for its future. Meanwhile the money that I used to spend on Leica goes elsewhere. YMMV. Sent from another Galaxy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 19, 2014 Share #375 Posted February 19, 2014 Bill, it is your opinion that the M8 XV etc are not what you would expect. However, there are plenty other users that think these cameras are excellent products. Don’t present your opinion as an absolute fact. It is not. It is probably even a minority opinion. http://marcuslowphotos.com/2014/02/15/enter-the-xvario/ http://rodriguezahr.blogspot.nl/2014/01/leica-xvario-camera-to-fall-in-love-with.html I’m too lazy to link to similar reviews for the M8, but you must be aware that they far outnumber the negative ones. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted February 19, 2014 Share #376 Posted February 19, 2014 As a victim of the coffee stain myself i must say that the M8.2 remains one of my favorite rangefinders since the seventies and its image quality is second to none at base ISO in my view. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted February 19, 2014 Share #377 Posted February 19, 2014 To each their own. I would not give house-room to either. What I find depressing is that any dissenting voice is stomped on. I care about Leica and I do not want to see them fail. Again. I am also tired of seeing the apologists and fanboys busy stomping on every honest comment. Unquestioning "everything you do is wonderful" sycopancy does not help Leica, in their little bubble, to grow and develop. Sent from another Galaxy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted February 19, 2014 Share #378 Posted February 19, 2014 To each their own. I would not give house-room to either. What I find depressing is that any dissenting voice is stomped on. I care about Leica and I do not want to see them fail. Again. I am also tired of seeing the apologists and fanboys busy stomping on every honest comment. Unquestioning "everything you do is wonderful" sycopancy does not help Leica, in their little bubble, to grow and develop. Sent from another Galaxy 1. Who cares about your house 2. Don't give us that dissenting "fair", stuff. You are always dismissive and myopic. 3. There is nothing honest about your comments, they are merely combative. 4. The weak filters were a feature, nothing yet matches the acuity of the M8 except the Monochrom. I.e. The users choose he level of filtration, much better! 5. Your beloved Fujis are APS-c, the M8 is APS-h. How can you possibly bring that as a disadvantage ? 6. You are upset that virtually no one shares your views. You attacks on anyone who has different views from you, always involving words like sycophancy, bubble, etc. Give us a break And why does your signature not say Fuji ambassador ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted February 19, 2014 Share #379 Posted February 19, 2014 The weak filters were a feature... Thank you, that is, honestly, beyond parody. I rest my case. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 19, 2014 Share #380 Posted February 19, 2014 To each their own. I would not give house-room to either. What I find depressing is that any dissenting voice is stomped on. I care about Leica and I do not want to see them fail. Again. I am also tired of seeing the apologists and fanboys busy stomping on every honest comment. Unquestioning "everything you do is wonderful" sycopancy does not help Leica, in their little bubble, to grow and develop. Sent from another Galaxy Problem is, you are doing the stomping.... As for failing, the M8 saved the company.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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