mjh Posted March 20, 2014 Share #701 Posted March 20, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) I feel your pain Doug, but I think any Leica 'SLR solution' is going to involve an EVF and a lens adaptor. Leica’s R solution is the M, and if they contemplate another R solution at all it would be the next M which will surely be equipped with a faster processor and will support a much improved EVF – not that I had any first hand knowledge about the specs but that is something we can take for granted. I wouldn't expect Leica to come up with anything fundamentally different from the M as an R solution. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 20, 2014 Posted March 20, 2014 Hi mjh, Take a look here CEO Alfred Schopf and future products. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
mjh Posted March 20, 2014 Share #702 Posted March 20, 2014 The Sony Nex 3N with IS zoom lens is being closed out at $300 so selling an APS for 10 times that will require a pretty special camera to appeal beyond die hard Leica enthusiasts. You think that Leica has any intention to compete against a clearance sale of some Sony camera? Anyone thinking that this was the right moment to pick up a NEX kit on the cheap will never become a Leica customer. And that’s OK. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted March 20, 2014 Share #703 Posted March 20, 2014 To read of people wishing for a Leica R 'solution' today is rather quaint, like hoping for Canon to release a new digital body with an FD mount. The R is as relevant to the current Leica company as the LTM system. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted March 20, 2014 Share #704 Posted March 20, 2014 Unfortunately that has been true for years. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 21, 2014 Share #705 Posted March 21, 2014 But Leica was still producing some batches of LTM lenses long after the mount was discontinued. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted March 21, 2014 Share #706 Posted March 21, 2014 You think that Leica has any intention to compete against a clearance sale of some Sony camera? Anyone thinking that this was the right moment to pick up a NEX kit on the cheap will never become a Leica customer. And that’s OK. That's precisely what I said. Leica either has to make something that is very special or it will mostly sell it to Leica enthusiasts. That may be all Leica cares to do. I personally can't picture what they could do to make an APS camera and kit lens worth $3000+ to many people but you never know. I wouldn't look at keeping such a camera for very long since technology quickly changes. I wouldn't sink much money into an APS system because I would use a FF camera when higher quality is important or versatility is required. An example of technology changing is the Nex 3N being replaced by a model that focuses faster and has other enhancements...despite the fact that the 3N is not a very old model. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted March 21, 2014 Share #707 Posted March 21, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) ... I personally can't picture what they could do to make an APS camera and kit lens worth $3000+ to many people but you never know. I wouldn't look at keeping such a camera for very long since technology quickly changes. . As a user of photo equipment, I can agree... but there IS people who buy stylish cell phones branded Prada or similar... there IS people who buy costly stylish laptops from Sony.... Panaleicas P&S are someway a joke... but they have listed them for several years : if the product line should had been proved unprofitable, I think they had quietly "killed" it time ago; moreover, there has been the X Line : 4+ years of life, I seem to remember... should have they invested in this to-come APS if the X Line had been a financial drain ? Market is complex and niches (at worldwide level, when you have a worldwide brand) are wider than one can think. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilliamsphotography Posted March 21, 2014 Share #708 Posted March 21, 2014 If I had to replace the DMR today the Sony A7 would be my first choice. I'm not thrilled with what I've been hearing about Sony service but the camera looks very good and those who have used both the DMR and the A7 tell me the Sony's color quality is the closest they've seen to the DMR aside from medium-format digital. I do not quite agree with that Doug. I have followed your work for a very long time, and do not think the Sony is there … yet. In my opinion, the DMR, M9, and S2/S all have similar image qualities and rendering characteristics … The DMR's APS-H CCD, Imacon engineered solution was pretty unique. A pity it wasn't continued to a full frame version, but that's life in the digital age I guess. The A7 and A7R are pretty good sensors, but they lack that certain "presence" of the DMR/M9/S2-S. Perhaps the next gen Sony FE camera will get closer … and with the Sony" Cornucopia of Cameras" you won't have to wait very long, LOL! - Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted March 21, 2014 Share #709 Posted March 21, 2014 I seem to recall you enthusing about the Leicaflex SL viewfinder. I did not have you down as an EVF guy… I am neither an EVF guy or an OVF guy. What I'm interested in is a bright, clear, responsive TTL-viewing system that allows me to focus quickly and easily, preferably manually, anywhere in the field of view. Leica’s R solution is the M, and if they contemplate another R solution at all it would be the next M which will surely be equipped with a faster processor and will support a much improved EVF.... The M(240) isn't it for me. The EVF isn't 'there' yet. To read of people wishing for a Leica R 'solution' today is rather quaint, like hoping for Canon to release a new digital body with an FD mount. The R is as relevant to the current Leica company as the LTM system. It's not rocket science. An R lens adapter on an M with a much better EVF would do. And BTW many people are thrilled they can use their FD lenses on the Sony A7 and A7r. I do not quite agree with that Doug. I have followed your work for a very long time, and do not think the Sony is there … yet. In my opinion, the DMR, M9, and S2/S all have similar image qualities and rendering characteristics … The DMR's APS-H CCD, Imacon engineered solution was pretty unique. A pity it wasn't continued to a full frame version, but that's life in the digital age I guess. The A7 and A7R are pretty good sensors, but they lack that certain "presence" of the DMR/M9/S2-S. That's one of the biggest reasons I've stuck with the DMR. And having followed your work and writings about your work for a very long time I respect your opinion. I've been trying to justify an S2 with long lens setup from the moment the system was announced; the Contax 645 adapter +350mm APO Teletessar + 1.4x mutar could work, but I'd have to sell all of my R equipment including the 280mm APO to switch to a single lens and single S2 body. No backups. Maybe it's time for kickstarter.com Perhaps the next gen Sony FE camera will get closer … and with the Sony" Cornucopia of Cameras" you won't have to wait very long, LOL! - Marc One can always hope, but the camera makers have been tripping over each other to push ISO limits higher and higher at the expense of the "presence" seen in the DMR/M9/S2-S. I will be watching the next few Sony announcements very closely. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilliamsphotography Posted March 21, 2014 Share #710 Posted March 21, 2014 That's one of the biggest reasons I've stuck with the DMR. And having followed your work and writings about your work for a very long time I respect your opinion. I've been trying to justify an S2 with long lens setup from the moment the system was announced; the Contax 645 adapter +350mm APO Teletessar + 1.4x mutar could work, but I'd have to sell all of my R equipment including the 280mm APO to switch to a single lens and single S2 body. No backups. Maybe it's time for kickstarter.com One can always hope, but the camera makers have been tripping over each other to push ISO limits higher and higher at the expense of the "presence" seen in the DMR/M9/S2-S. I will be watching the next few Sony announcements very closely. Doug, personally, I seriously have little faith that anything in the near future, (or maybe ever), is going get into that zone you are looking for, and the specific image characteristics we both seem to appreciate. I've had a number of digital cameras that delivered that sort of presence (for lack of a better word) … the Contax N digital with its' full frame 6 meg Phillips CCD chip, flawed camera as it was, had it (also suddenly abandoned like the R system) … the Leaf Aptus 75S with a 33 meg Dalsa CCD chip delivered it … and my Contax 645 with a seemingly puny 16 meg square CCD Kodak ProBack 645C had the magic, especially with that 350 APO (both the camera system AND the back suddenly abandoned) … likewise the DMR, M9 and S2/S as already mentioned. I remain a proponent of CCD sensors not out of any defensible scientific rationale, but because it is the common element of every camera who's' image characteristics I freely admit to subjectively preferring … so arguing with me is a waste of breath : -) If, IMO, it comes out of some CMOS sensor in future, I'll be the first to say so. I am keeping an open mind, and closely following what Phase and Hasselblad do with the Sony 50 meg CMOS chipped backs for a hint of what might be possible in future from CMOS. I also think it is more than just pushing the ISO upper limits, but also the obsession with dynamic range that seems to make it all the more difficult. IMO, super ISO and massive DR are the tail waging the dog … attributes that are needed in a minority of shots dictating the image characteristics of all the rest. Maybe that is just me, but I do know I am not alone in that opinion. Frankly, it seems that the S2/S is tailor made for you … perhaps in conjunction with keeping the DMR and one of the other long Leica R lenses as back-up? S2 prices seemed to be getting within striking range. The question would be whether the Contax 350APO and 1.4X extender would deliver the same draw and compression you now get with the longer R lenses on the 1.33X DMR APS-H sensor? Probably, but it is to early in the AM to do that sort of visual math … LOL! Best of luck in your quest! - Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted March 21, 2014 Share #711 Posted March 21, 2014 Frankly, it seems that the S2/S is tailor made for you … perhaps in conjunction with keeping the DMR and one of the other long Leica R lenses as back-up? S2 prices seemed to be getting within striking range. The question would be whether the Contax 350APO and 1.4X extender would deliver the same draw and compression you now get with the longer R lenses on the 1.33X DMR APS-H sensor? Probably, but it is to early in the AM to do that sort of visual math … LOL! That's the optimum scenario, I stil have to work out how to get around the hollow sound my piggy bank makes. As far as draw & compression goes, the field of view of the 350 + 1.4x extender on an S is about like a 400mm lens on a 24x36 camera or the 280mm lens on the DMR. It's near the short end of the usable range of focal lengths for wildlife. I can make it work. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted March 21, 2014 Share #712 Posted March 21, 2014 If I was Leica, this (just one example) would be sufficient payment for an S with the longest lens. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilliamsphotography Posted March 21, 2014 Share #713 Posted March 21, 2014 That's the optimum scenario, I stil have to work out how to get around the hollow sound my piggy bank makes. As far as draw & compression goes, the field of view of the 350 + 1.4x extender on an S is about like a 400mm lens on a 24x36 camera or the 280mm lens on the DMR. It's near the short end of the usable range of focal lengths for wildlife. I can make it work. The name Leica and empty piggy bank are synonymous aren't they Doug? : -0 I'm scrambling to sell off some stuff to cover the 45CS that FedEx just delivered today. It always seems to work itself out, but I know the feeling. This Leica stuff is like a brain worm. - Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted March 27, 2014 Share #714 Posted March 27, 2014 OK, time to Tell. It is an APS-C camera and will take M and R lenses via adapters (R lenses will require 2 adapters). Since I am a FF guy, this does not interest me as I have an M 240 FF backup camera, but should be a viable backup for many. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FPB Posted March 27, 2014 Share #715 Posted March 27, 2014 .... I remain a proponent of CCD sensors not out of any defensible scientific rationale, but because it is the common element of every camera who's' image characteristics I freely admit to subjectively preferring … If, IMO, it comes out of some CMOS sensor in future, I'll be the first to say so. I am keeping an open mind, and closely following what Phase and Hasselblad do with the Sony 50 meg CMOS chipped backs for a hint of what might be possible in future from CMOS. I also think it is more than just pushing the ISO upper limits, but also the obsession with dynamic range that seems to make it all the more difficult. IMO, super ISO and massive DR are the tail waging the dog … attributes that are needed in a minority of shots dictating the image characteristics of all the rest. Maybe that is just me, but I do know I am not alone in that opinion .... One more CCD proponent here. IMO, the 'presence' of a CCD can only be achieved with a much larger CMOS / many more pixels. Interestingly, a PhaseOne rep told me about 3 months ago that they are working on CMOS, but still do not get the quality they want. Hm, competition seems to have changed that in the mean time.... It is my take, that right now the race for a better camera (whatever that is) gets away from image quality at base ISO. Although times are thrilling. I for one wait until the new Sony sensors show up, without Bayer pattern. No further improved Bayer CMOS for me please. Hopefully, my M9s make it the next 2-3 years. Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FPB Posted March 27, 2014 Share #716 Posted March 27, 2014 OK, time to Tell. It is an APS-C camera and will take M and R lenses via adapters (R lenses will require 2 adapters). ... Can't wait to see a picture of such an assembly with R lenses .... Well APS-C would not make it into my bag as well. Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted March 28, 2014 Share #717 Posted March 28, 2014 (R lenses will require 2 adapters) Novoflex will fix that problem. Well APS-C would not make it into my bag as well. This camera would need a huge functional advantage to offset the APS-C sensor to earn a place in my kit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 28, 2014 Share #718 Posted March 28, 2014 This camera would need a huge functional advantage to offset the APS-C sensor to earn a place in my kit. I have no objection to sensor size in principle. Bigger is better does not necessarily apply especially with long lenses. One would need to see the results of such a sensor first, which, by the Xvario sensor, could be amazingly good. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted March 28, 2014 Share #719 Posted March 28, 2014 Interesting article in AP this week, taking the Nikon Df head to head with the Fuji X-T1. Little to no effective difference in output. A good big 'un will always beat a good little 'un, but that is not the only criterion. I had a Nikon D700. I chopped it in for my first Fuji X when I realised that I was missing photo opportunities by not carrying the heavy Nikon. Most of my serious photography is done when travelling, or on long weekends or days out. The best camera - for me - is the one I can carry all day with ease, that produces quality outputs. That's why my default carry-everywhere is a Ricoh GR - now if Leica were to produce an equivalent... Sent from another Galaxy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jankap Posted March 28, 2014 Share #720 Posted March 28, 2014 Agree with the carry factor. My EOS is not being used any more. The foremost argument against APS-C is the crop factor in case of using FF lenses (M, R or MD). Jan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.