Strange white spots on M9 sensor?

[wattsy]

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The issue is linked with corrosion effects on the cover glass of the CCD sensor in Leica M9, M9-P, M Monochrom and M-E cameras.

 

It is interesting that the M8 sensor does not seem to have been affected by this delaminating/corrosion problem. Maybe something to do with the type of adhesive used to bond the glass on the larger full frame sensors of the M9 and Monochrom?

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[wlaidlaw]

Based on this thread, we feel the need to clarifying a couple of things about the sensor marks issue you have been experiencing. The issue is linked with corrosion effects on the cover glass of the CCD sensor in Leica M9, M9-P, M Monochrom and M-E cameras. They manifest themselves as marks on images captured at smaller apertures (f/5.6-22). The new Leica M (Type 240) with the CMOS sensor is not affected by this problem. We are truly sorry for the inconvenience encountered and we have set up the following scheme for servicing the sensors of the products affected. Please be aware that a contact-free cleaning of the sensor is essential in preventing the issue.

 

• Customer care will perform sensor cleaning free of charge by prior arrangement.

• In the case of damage as a result of corrosion, the sensor will be replaced free of charge up to three years following the date of purchase. Leica Camera AG will cover the full costs of replacement, amounting to 1,800 euros plus applicable VAT. This does not apply to sensors damaged by scratching or breakage of the sensor glass.

• In the fourth and fifth year following the date of purchase, sensors damaged by the corrosion effects described will be replaced for a fixed charge of 600 euros plus applicable VAT. Leica Camera AG will cover the remaining costs of 1,200 euros.

• In the sixth and seventh year following the date of purchase, sensor replacement will be offered at a fixed charge of 1,200 euros plus applicable VAT. Leica Camera AG will cover the remaining costs of 600 euros.

• For the eighth and more years following the date of purchase, sensor replacement will be offered at a fixed charge of 1,500 euros plus applicable VAT. Leica Camera AG will cover the remaining costs of 300 euros.

• The prices stated apply for direct shipment of the camera to Leica Customer Care in Wetzlar or the Customer Care department of a national distributor. Additional costs may arise when the camera is sent to Leica through a dealer.

• Mandatory warranty conditions will apply after customers have taken advantage of the extended goodwill arrangement.

• As longer waiting times may otherwise occur, the camera should only be sent to Customer Care after prior arrangement.

•

We will continue watching this thread so you are welcome to react here.

 

^JJ with Leica-camera

 

In my view and from my long experience with cleaning M8, M9 and M240 cameras, non-contact cleaning just does not begin work for cleaning sensors. Canned air cleaners, apart from squirting a dangerous and highly inflammable mix of propane and butane into the camera, only blow the dust around into the shutter mechanism and the electronics of the camera and do not remove it. The so-called Rocket type bulb blowers, which I do use, are only minimally effective. They also do not begin to remove the greasy spots, which are often to be found adhering to the sensor cover glass.

 

If you are saying that contact cleaning methods invalidate the implied 6 year EU warranty, you are in effect saying that all interchangeable lens Leica digital cameras are now unusable in the long term. If this is really the case, you make a very good reason for a refund of the purchase price of all digital M Leica cameras and all the lenses bought to fit them.

 

I am amazed that anyone has seen fit to thank you for your post and are not like me, up in arms. I am totally astounded by the position Leica is taking on this. It is certainly not to the benefit of customers.

 

Wet cleaning of sensors is the industry standard for removing smears, condensation and grease spots on interchangeable lens digital cameras. It strikes me that this is a backside covering approach by Leica because the costs of warranty replacement of inadequately sealed/incorrectly made sensors or cover glasses are starting to mount up.

 

I hope you realise that I am extremely unhappy about this, as a loyal Leica customer of now close to 50 years and as an owner of 10 Leica cameras and dozens of lenses.

 

Wilson

[Guest digiuser_reloaded]

In simple words: A sensor you can not clean yourself makes the camera useless and a case for the glass cabinet.

[wattsy]

Wilson, just to be clear I 'thanked' the post above because I appreciate the clarity and honesty. I am not happy about the new policy or the implications of it.

[Firefly]

This is why I ask about if the new sensers being an upgrade or like for like with regular changes being anticipated in the future. Current market price for a M9 here in the UK seems to be around £2600 at Dealer's, three years from now some of these will be eight years old and I suspect with market forces will be worth less than the cost of the repair. How long should a premium priced digital camera last? And what are the implications if the market loses confidence in the camera built to last a lifetime or more? Cheers Rob

[jaapv]

In my view and from my long experience with cleaning M8, M9 and M240 cameras, non-contact cleaning just does not begin work for cleaning sensors. Canned air cleaners, apart from squirting a dangerous and highly inflammable mix of propane and butane into the camera, only blow the dust around into the shutter mechanism and the electronics of the camera and do not remove it. The so-called Rocket type bulb blowers, which I do use, are only minimally effective. They also do not begin to remove the greasy spots, which are often to be found adhering to the sensor cover glass.

 

If you are saying that contact cleaning methods invalidate the implied 6 year EU warranty, you are in effect saying that all interchangeable lens Leica digital cameras are now unusable in the long term. If this is really the case, you make a very good reason for a refund of the purchase price of all digital M Leica cameras and all the lenses bought to fit them.

 

I am amazed that anyone has seen fit to thank you for your post and are not like me, up in arms. I am totally astounded by the position Leica is taking on this. It is certainly not to the benefit of customers.

 

Wet cleaning of sensors is the industry standard for removing smears, condensation and grease spots on interchangeable lens digital cameras. It strikes me that this is a backside covering approach by Leica because the costs of warranty replacement of inadequately sealed/incorrectly made sensors or cover glasses are starting to mount up.

 

I hope you realise that I am extremely unhappy about this, as a loyal Leica customer of now close to 50 years and as an owner of 10 Leica cameras and dozens of lenses.

 

Wilson

 

I do not know where you read that contact-cleaning invalidates the warranty.

I only read that Leica advises not to do so. (They might have added unless you know what you are doing, but I suspect that was deemed to be too vague)

 

Please be aware that a contact-free cleaning of the sensor is essential in preventing the issue.

That reads as an advice, not a condition, especially as it clashes with advice given on their own site.

 

 

With thanks to Digiuser for the screenshot

Edited November 21, 2014 by jaapv

[wlaidlaw]

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I do not know where you read that contact-cleaning invalidates the warranty.

I only read that Leica advises not to do so. (They might have added unless you know what you are doing, but I suspect that was deemed to be too vague)

 

That reads as an advice, not a condition, especially as it clashes with advice given on their own site.

 

Jaap,

 

Under EU law, there is an implied warranty on all electrical or electronic goods above a certain cost (not sure what it is but any of the M's are way in excess of the amount) for six years after purchase or longer if a court deems it reasonable. By virtue of Leica saying they will charge very substantial amounts to replace a sensor within that six year period, even if it is damaged by what most of us would regard as "normal and essential usage" i.e. contact sensor cleaning, they are seriously limiting or qualifying the EU legal warranty.

 

Wilson

[jaapv]

Wilson,

I quite agree and in fact said so before. I suspect this policy will last until they have lost the first lawsuits.

This is after all Germany, with an Anwalt at each street corner.

The sad thing is that it will have damaged their reputation substantially. They may have gained a few tens of thousands of Euros in repair costs but will lose millions in sales by this.

Sadly it is an old Leica tradition to take disastrous management decisions from time to time

Edited November 21, 2014 by jaapv

[M9reno]

For me the writing was on the wall for the M9 et al. since the M8 LCD debacle. It says: "Digital Leicas are Disposables and Will be Treated as Such." (Parenthetically, I wonder how many lawsuits Leica has faced over the M8?)

[jaapv]

None I would say, as they did the right thing there. The LCD problem was wholly beyond their control and they did propose a reasonable solution. (Note - a reasonable solution is not necessary one that everybody likes )

In this case however, they seem to be in direct opposition to consumer law.

Edited November 21, 2014 by jaapv

[pico]

I have been quiet about the sensor corrosion issue, or whatever it is, but now that JJ(Leica) has made a statement then the issue is open. I have never cleaned my M9 sensor due to lack of confidence regarding methods and of the sensor itself. I'm going to back off plans to get the 240 or an S until I learn more.

 

Instead of cleaning I wrote scripts and Photoshop actions to automatically spot any (however infrequent) good images I make. In an odd way, the dust and blemish pattern in my DNG images are like a finger-print, so to speak, showing them to be mine. Strange, unimportant, but a rationalization I can live with.

 

I will continue to use the M9 until the condition is intolerable and then either put it away or give it to someone. Selling the M9 is for me a dishonest means to get out from under it.

Edited November 21, 2014 by pico

[M-Mount]

Are there different types?

 

Full Frame CCD, Image Sensor, 18.5 MP

[flyingfader]

Please be aware that a contact-free cleaning of the sensor is essential in preventing the issue

Isn't that funny, specially when you watch this ( around 14:50)

 

Assembling The Leica M9 on Vimeo

 

Do Leica ruine themselves their owns sensors during the QC?

Edited November 21, 2014 by flyingfader

[M-Mount]

manufacturers instructions on sensors:

 

http://www.onsemi.com/pub_link/Collateral/AN52561-D.PDF

[geotrupede]

Based on this thread, we feel the need to clarifying a couple of things about the sensor marks issue you have been experiencing. The issue is linked with corrosion effects on the cover glass of the CCD sensor in Leica M9, M9-P, M Monochrom and M-E cameras. They manifest themselves as marks on images captured at smaller apertures (f/5.6-22). The new Leica M (Type 240) with the CMOS sensor is not affected by this problem. We are truly sorry for the inconvenience encountered and we have set up the following scheme for servicing the sensors of the products affected. Please be aware that a contact-free cleaning of the sensor is essential in preventing the issue.

 

• Customer care will perform sensor cleaning free of charge by prior arrangement.

• In the case of damage as a result of corrosion, the sensor will be replaced free of charge up to three years following the date of purchase. Leica Camera AG will cover the full costs of replacement, amounting to 1,800 euros plus applicable VAT. This does not apply to sensors damaged by scratching or breakage of the sensor glass.

• In the fourth and fifth year following the date of purchase, sensors damaged by the corrosion effects described will be replaced for a fixed charge of 600 euros plus applicable VAT. Leica Camera AG will cover the remaining costs of 1,200 euros.

• In the sixth and seventh year following the date of purchase, sensor replacement will be offered at a fixed charge of 1,200 euros plus applicable VAT. Leica Camera AG will cover the remaining costs of 600 euros.

• For the eighth and more years following the date of purchase, sensor replacement will be offered at a fixed charge of 1,500 euros plus applicable VAT. Leica Camera AG will cover the remaining costs of 300 euros.

• The prices stated apply for direct shipment of the camera to Leica Customer Care in Wetzlar or the Customer Care department of a national distributor. Additional costs may arise when the camera is sent to Leica through a dealer.

• Mandatory warranty conditions will apply after customers have taken advantage of the extended goodwill arrangement.

• As longer waiting times may otherwise occur, the camera should only be sent to Customer Care after prior arrangement.

•

We will continue watching this thread so you are welcome to react here.

 

^JJ with Leica-camera

 

One thing that is missing in the above and would be good to know is what is the actual cause of corrosion.

 

Because if it is a problem of wrong cleaning agents it would be better NOT to cover any damage but have a list of products that can be used.

 

I am sure we would be all relaxed and happy to buy the right product and avoid claims and issues at the beginning. Because even if this is a generous arrangement (to a degree), it still comes with the usual waste of time of sending / shipping / etc.

 

So, is this a problem of cleaning agents wiping off the anti reflective coating or is it a problem of a faulty anti reflective coating which cannot be cleaned with any agent?

 

An official clarification would be very welcome.

 

Thanks,

G

[leicaphilia]

For me the writing was on the wall for the M9 et al. since the M8 LCD debacle. It says: "Digital Leicas are Disposables and Will be Treated as Such." (Parenthetically, I wonder how many lawsuits Leica has faced over the M8?)

 

Well, of course they are. Anyone who bought a digital Leica were deluding themselves if they thought it would have the productive life of a mechanical M. I do think that Leica may have intitially encouraged that sort of thinking with their marketing, but, alas, marketing is just that, marketing. Its up to the consumer to use their common sense, and common sense should have told you that any product built with electronic circuits and computerized components will have a lmited functional life. You don't buy your iPhone thinking you're going to gift it to your grandchildren, right?

 

That's the reality of the digital age.

Edited November 22, 2014 by leicaphilia

[k-hawinkler]

Red Herring?

[pico]

Well, of course they are. Anyone who bought a digital Leica were deluding themselves if they thought it would have the productive life of a mechanical M.[...]

 

The poor soul who announced this ....

 

Dear LEICA M8 customers,

 

The desire to own a digital camera manufactured by Leica,

possessing the identical lifelong value retention associated with

every Leica product, was brought to us by many of our customers.

Leica Camera AG has now configured the LEICA M8 to meet this

demand. With today's newsletter, we would like to inform you

exclusively and in advance of an outstanding innovation regarding

your cherished LEICA M8.

 

 

With the introduction of a perpetual upgrade program, every LEICA

M8 will forever be a state-of-the-art digital camera. Today's and

tomorrow's users will always be able to incorporate the latest

refinements and developments in handling ease and technology. It is

our aim to secure your investment in the LEICA M8 for the future.

While other digital cameras quickly become outdated and are

replaced by newer models, our new concept extends the value

retention and resistance to obsolescence embodied in the Leica

ethos. Over time, we will gradually offer new product features and

developments as upgrade options, declares Steven K. Lee, CEO of

Leica Camera AG.

 

Our customers can therefore still invest in the photographic tools they need without worrying that they will miss out on improvements and technological developments along the way.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[leicaphilia]

The poor soul who announced this ....

 

Ouch.

[gyoung]

I don't think at that stage they had any idea what they were doing, little understanding of the technology.

 

Gerry