Traveling with the M240

[mmx_2]

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Certainly not the least expensive way, but probably the safest, though I would put the camera and lenses in my A+A Oskar Day Bag, then apply the seat belt. Looks like you went coach, not first class.

 

Short flight (2h) = no first class available ;)

[Paul J]

Great review. One of the best and most useful I have read about this camera.

 

A couple or curious questions for you, if I may.

 

I'm really wondering about the extent of the green shadow issue you've picked up on. Even with a shadow adjustment of 40, which is quite reasonable, it's way too prominent in this sample given to be acceptable. Is this indicative of how the camera performs with every shot in that shadow range? Can other owners verify if this exists on their M copy? I, along with other people had a similar issue of banding in shadows with my M9 that was cleared up by swapping SD cards, have you tried another card?

 

With the EVF zooming in every time you turn the focus ring, can you turn that zoom function off? That is a very invasive and frustrating function to shoot with, IMO. Also the open up and then stop down nature to properly focus seems mostly useless to me and I can't see how this could ever be addressed with a manual aperture ring either.

 

Also just have to concur on your final thoughts about the 90 APO Summicron. It really draws like nothing else. The shovel shot in particular, WOW. The couple shots you have here with this lens are truly incredible for the colour and smoothness of detail tone and colour graduation is really very impressive. That's a great combination there.

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[leicatraveller]

I recently returned from a 17-day trip, with the M240 as my only camera. Lenses: 18 Super-Elmar, 50 'lux, 90 'cron. The plan was to have an RX-1 to fill in the gap between 18 and 50, but it didn't survive the first leg of the trip, so it was all Leica, all the time.

 

I'd been doing a series of technical analyses of M240 performance in the weeks before the trip, and it was a pleasure to just get out and use the camera. I've posted a "lessons learned" thread starting here:

 

Traveling with the Leica M240, part 1 | The Last Word

 

Some of my findings:

 

 

• I didn't use the EVF near as much as I thought I would.
  
• The green shadows problem shows up in the field, but I had to work at making it apparent.
  
• In general, the resolution capabilities of camera like the M240 make the old rules about hand held shutter speeds and depth of field markings obsolete.
  
• Moire is almost never a problem.
  
• Wake-up time is, even without LV
  
• Battery life without LV is great
  
• The corner corrections for the 18 work very well.
  
• The Leica M system is small, but not so light.
  
• The M240 is a good camera for panos, eliminating the frustrations of using the M9 for that application.
  
• Those are three lovely lenses
  

As usual, comments are appreciated.

 

Jim

 

interesting infos , thanx

[thighslapper]

I'm really wondering about the extent of the green shadow issue you've picked up on. Even with a shadow adjustment of 40, which is quite reasonable, it's way too prominent in this sample given to be acceptable. Is this indicative of how the camera performs with every shot in that shadow range?

With the EVF zooming in every time you turn the focus ring, can you turn that zoom function off?

 

Banding and 'Tartan' in recovering shadows is only an issue when done to a fairly ridiculous extent in trying to rescue otherwise unavoidable situations ..... and most of it can be mitigated in LR to an extent that when viewed at 'normal' sizes it is not a problem ...... see this thread onwards.... http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m-type-240/278105-comparison-m9-m240-6.html#post2368076

 

Focus aid zooming on LV can be set as manually actuated by the button on the front ..... or auto when the lens is focussed

Edited October 23, 2013 by thighslapper

[algrove]

Certainly not the least expensive way, but probably the safest, though I would put the camera and lenses in my A+A Oskar Day Bag, then apply the seat belt. Looks like you went coach, not first class.

 

Who can fly first class after buying Leica gear?

[algrove]

Great review.

With the EVF zooming in every time you turn the focus ring, can you turn that zoom function off? That is a very invasive and frustrating function to shoot with, IMO. Also the open up and then stop down nature to properly focus seems mostly useless to me and I can't see how this could ever be addressed with a manual aperture ring either.

/QUOTE]

 

Paul one can select 1x, 5x or 10x. Sure you can turn it off, but leaving it on 1x solves your issue I would think.

[Rick]

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Thanks, Rick, I'll spend some time with the lens on the M240 and look at the results. I haven't used it much since I did this testing a couple of years ago:

 

Wag the dog, part 4 | The Last Word

 

Wag the dog, part 5 | The Last Word

 

Do you think the WATE should come close to the 18mm Super-Elmar? That would be wonderful!

 

Jim

 

Nah, that must be because it was the NEX5 or some other reason. The WATE holds its own against the 18mm Super-Elmar in everything except it has more mustache distortion which is hard to correct in architectural photos, but never noticed in landscape and other stuff.

 

I would be surprised if you didn't like the color saturation, sharpness and over all quality of that lens on the M... and no red edge at all. Has to be one of my favorites. Jono seems love it as well.

[steveBK]

A bit more detail on the Sony problem. I flew to LAX on a regional jet, then changed to a big plane for the flight to Boston. I had both cameras and all the lenses in a Adorama Slinger in my hand luggage. My hand luggage won't fit in the tiny overheads on the regional jets, so I did a gate check with a gate return on the other end. I was in a rush, and I forgot to open the bag, take out the Slinger, and carry it on the plane.

 

So it was really my fault.

 

On the road trip from Boston to Montreal, we went through NH and VT looking for fall foliage. We were early, so we were in Burlington, on the shores of Lake Champlain, before I pulled out a camera. We were going for a walk, so I picked the Sony for its low weight. When I put it to my eye, I saw the error code E:61:00, and noticed that all the pictures were out of focus, and that manual focus didn't work. I persuaded my wife to go back to the car to get the Leica.

 

That night, in the motel room, I read up on the error. The 'net consensus seemed to be that you had to send the camera back to the factory to get it fixed, but there was a minority opinion that you might be able to fix it yourself by subjecting the camera to a good sharp rap on a table. I thought that I didn't have much to lose, so I tried it. Nada.

 

I did find out that I could focus the camera by setting the focus range selector to intermediate positions between the two with detents. But it wouldn't turn on the focus magnifier, so I couldn't judge sharpness very well.

 

In Montreal, I went to a camera store that carried Sony (and Leica). The sales person said the camera would have to go back to Sony, and complimented me on my "backup camera".

 

Jim

 

Interesting actually.

In a situation like this, most would assume the RF camera would have more problems after a bit of "rough handling". Specifically, RF alignment at the very least.

[Naper]

This is how I travel with my M :D:D

 

 

Sorry for the crappy iPhone picture.

 

Where is your red dot?

[JimKasson]

I'm really wondering about the extent of the green shadow issue you've picked up on. Even with a shadow adjustment of 40, which is quite reasonable, it's way too prominent in this sample given to be acceptable. Is this indicative of how the camera performs with every shot in that shadow range? Can other owners verify if this exists on their M copy? I, along with other people had a similar issue of banding in shadows with my M9 that was cleared up by swapping SD cards, have you tried another card?

 

The green shadow problem is systemic, at least at ISOs of less than 800. Here's a set of images of test charts, which you can try yourself:

 

Characterizing the Leica M240, part 26 | The Last Word

 

Here are graphs of data associated with that set of images:

 

Characterizing the Leica M240, part 27 | The Last Word

 

A fellow member of this forum kindly sent me images made with his M240, which exhibited similar if not identical effects, so I don't think it is a sample defect. It appears to be associated with a nonlinearuty near zero electron count that I've never seen on any camera but the M240. I can supply lots more details if you're interested, or you can poke through my web posts on the subject, which precede those pointed to in the above links.

 

The topic has also been discussed on this forum.

 

If is unaffected by state of battery charge, SD cards, or that phase of the moon.

 

With the EVF zooming in every time you turn the focus ring, can you turn that zoom function off? That is a very invasive and frustrating function to shoot with, IMO. Also the open up and then stop down nature to properly focus seems mostly useless to me and I can't see how this could ever be addressed with a manual aperture ring either.

 

As has been addressed below, you can turn that function off. However, I like it on. I consider it neither invasive nor irritating. The opening up and stopping down is another thing. Over time, I may gain confidence in my ability to focus at the shooting aperture, but it certainly doesn't pop like wide open. And RF lenses have to be designed to have low focus shift upon stopping down for the RF application.

 

Also just have to concur on your final thoughts about the 90 APO Summicron. It really draws like nothing else. The shovel shot in particular, WOW. The couple shots you have here with this lens are truly incredible for the colour and smoothness of detail tone and colour graduation is really very impressive. That's a great combination there.

 

Thanks!

 

Jim

[SiriusLux]

Who can fly first class after buying Leica gear?

 

This is one way to see things.

 

My way of seeing it is:

 

"Why fly first class when you can save the money for a Leica?"

 

Hence I never fly business or first, and I give an example for my emplyees, who fly coach as well.

[JimKasson]

I'm really wondering about the extent of the green shadow issue you've picked up on. Even with a shadow adjustment of 40, which is quite reasonable, it's way too prominent in this sample given to be acceptable. Is this indicative of how the camera performs with every shot in that shadow range?

 

Here's a pointer to a discussion of this issue in this forum.

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m-type-240/298028-leica-m-sensor-low-light-performance-3.html

 

Jim

[Paul J]

The green shadow problem is systemic, at least at ISOs of less than 800. Here's a set of images of test charts, which you can try yourself:

 

Characterizing the Leica M240, part 26 | The Last Word

 

Here are graphs of data associated with that set of images:

 

Characterizing the Leica M240, part 27 | The Last Word

 

A fellow member of this forum kindly sent me images made with his M240, which exhibited similar if not identical effects, so I don't think it is a sample defect. It appears to be associated with a nonlinearuty near zero electron count that I've never seen on any camera but the M240. I can supply lots more details if you're interested, or you can poke through my web posts on the subject, which precede those pointed to in the above links.

 

The topic has also been discussed on this forum.

 

If is unaffected by state of battery charge, SD cards, or that phase of the moon.

 

 

 

As has been addressed below, you can turn that function off. However, I like it on. I consider it neither invasive nor irritating. The opening up and stopping down is another thing. Over time, I may gain confidence in my ability to focus at the shooting aperture, but it certainly doesn't pop like wide open. And RF lenses have to be designed to have low focus shift upon stopping down for the RF application.

 

 

 

Thanks!

 

Jim

 

Thorough and impressive Jim, thanks for the info. I was lightly following your earlier threads, but didn't realise the extent to which it was occurring and I feel these green shadows pose a real problem, IMO. I am guessing this is sensor characteristic that will be difficult for Leica to correct. I also see this being far too fiddly to correct in post with an image with a fine and complex colour structure, as I often see. Easy to fudge, yes, but at the great cost of time and loss of integrity and realism.

 

I am pleased to hear you can turn the zoom functions off, thanks to those for the info. I would also personally prefer to focus wide open, which is quite off putting. Seems there is a lot of work to do on this camera still...

Edited October 24, 2013 by Paul J

[JimKasson]

...I feel these green shadows pose a real problem, IMO. I am guessing this is sensor characteristic that will be difficult for Leica to correct. I also see this being far too fiddly to correct in post with an image with a fine and complex colour structure, as I often see. Easy to fudge, yes, but at the great cost of time and loss of integrity and realism.

 

Yes, it's much better to avoid the situations that cause the green shadows in the first place. A two-stop push is never problem for me, but a three-stop one sometimes is. I say sometimes, because, if the shadows are already green, as in many landscapes, you'll never see it. Now that I know the camera has this problem, I find it fairly easy to work around.

 

One of the reasons that I gave it so much ink a month ago was that, as far as I knew and know, no one else has found it, and I thought it was important to make M240 shooters aware of it so that they, too, could work around it.

 

I would also personally prefer to focus wide open, which is quite off putting.

 

I think focusing stopped down is part of the EVIL gestalt. The RX-1 and NEX-7 work the same way. If you really want to focus wide open, and you're in a hurry, I think you need to use a DSLR.

 

Seems there is a lot of work to do on this camera still...

 

As I said at the end of the review, on balance I like the camera. It's not perfect, but no camera, even my beloved D4, is. If you like the rangefinder experience, can afford it, and have a collection of Leica glass, I think it's a no brainer. It gives you a whole lot more versatility than the M9. If you decide to wait for the next generation, I think you'll wait years. And think of all the images you won't make in the meantime.

 

Jim

[JimKasson]

One of the reasons that I gave it so much ink a month ago was that, as far as I knew and know, no one else has found it, and I thought it was important to make M240 shooters aware of it so that they, too, could work around it.

 

Often when I post information that's not totally complementary in my blog, the manufacturers contact me to discuss it. That hasn't happened with the green shadows issue.

 

I think someone from Leica must have seen the discussions by now; if not directly on my blog, at least on this forum -- they've got to be monitoring it. I would guess they haven't contacted me to talk about it because they know all about it already, probably from internal testing.

 

It may even be designed that way for a reason; it does reduce shadow noise if you don't push the images to far. If it is designed that way on purpose, it would be nice to have someone from Leica identify the purpose.

 

If if is due to a negative offset prior to the ADCs, I tend to think it's there for a reason; because that much of a negative offset consistently present on all channels on all rows and columns suggests not a lack of control of the process, but the hand of a designer.

 

If it's an accidental artifact, then saying nothing may be the best thing that Leica can do from a PR perspective.

 

 

Or maybe they intend to fix it in a future spin to the mask set, and don't want to say anything about it because of the Osborne Effect or because they are worried about incurring a retrofit liability.

Edited October 24, 2013 by JimKasson
Add speculative last paragraph

[algrove]

Thinking that Leica follows us is just nonsense.

 

Example- Many of us reported the M shut down problem mostly while using the EVF on LUF. In mid August I have a 2 hour set down with CS Solms. They were so intrigued by the idea of shutdowns while using the EVF, that they brought in their own camera to match my settings in order to see if later they could emulate the problem. They told me to my face they had never had shut downs occur when using the EVF and had never heard of it before then. They are on top of nothing. It took FW Beta testers to get them to acknowledge the problem in late September/early October with overwhelming evidence.

[pieterpronk]

Do you think it's possible to correct this problem through a firmware update?

 

Btw I doubt Leica would contact you if they can't do anything about it, whether it has been by design or accident.

[JimKasson]

Thinking that Leica follows us is just nonsense.

 

Example- Many of us reported the M shut down problem mostly while using the EVF on LUF. In mid August I have a 2 hour set down with CS Solms. They were so intrigued by the idea of shutdowns while using the EVF, that they brought in their own camera to match my settings in order to see if later they could emulate the problem. They told me to my face they had never had shut downs occur when using the EVF and had never heard of it before then. They are on top of nothing. It took FW Beta testers to get them to acknowledge the problem in late September/early October with overwhelming evidence.

 

Sad. And self-destructive.

[JimKasson]

Do you think it's possible to correct this problem through a firmware update?

 

I have to say that I don't really understand the root cause of the problem. If it's a pre-ADC negative offset, then the information that was lost is gone forever. You might be able to cover some of it up in firmware, but you're better off leaving it alone and giving the user the opportunity to fix it as best she can in post.

 

If there's no offset before the ADC, and the effect is introduced in raw image processing in the camera, then it should be possible to eliminate it with a new firmware image.

 

I know of no way that I can tell which situation obtains through testing. There may be another cause I haven't considered.

 

Btw I doubt Leica would contact you if they can't do anything about it, whether it has been by design or accident.

 

Based on algrove's earlier post, I have to agree.

 

Jim

Edited October 24, 2013 by JimKasson
error in attribution

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[pieterpronk]

The fact that you were the first to write about it begs the question though: did nobody else notice it? Do most people just never push the files that much?

 

I mean with the Monochrom some people pointed out banding after pushing enough shadows in a hig contrast shot. I never noticed because I never felt the need to push my files that much.

 

So, the question to people with a M240. Did you ever notice the green shadows problem in normal use?