imperfiction Posted November 20, 2013 Share #41 Posted November 20, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) It must not be forgotten that the firmware development for the m9 was done in cooperation with Jenoptic - a competitor of sorts now that Leica is in the medium format business. It may very we'll be that Leica does not have a partner to work with on the firmware. With the new M, the firmware is done in house. As such I would rely on Leica to take care of it better. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 20, 2013 Posted November 20, 2013 Hi imperfiction, Take a look here Frustrated... Where is the M9 firmware fix?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
JPH1962 Posted November 20, 2013 Share #42 Posted November 20, 2013 it must not be forgotten... but this is not a justification or excuse. It is certainly a challenge to a company such as leica to handle the firmware maintenance. One is allowed to ask if they are not up to the task. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcg Posted November 20, 2013 Share #43 Posted November 20, 2013 If they are not up to the task then they shouldn't be committing their customers to the purchase if their products. I think that Leica are over-trading. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NikonJeff Posted November 20, 2013 Author Share #44 Posted November 20, 2013 Well if anyone has a name and email address for Leica AG that you could send me, I for one as the OP would love to draft a letter to them. Looking at the number of times this post has been viewed (over 2700 times), I think that Leica might take notice if after the letter was drafted (and vetted by the folks here on the forum) we each sent an email voicing our concern, displeasure, disgust, anger or what have you about their lack of attention to this perhaps something will be addressed. With Leica currently stuck with their heads in the sand, it is unlikely that we will see any fixes unless we as customers raise our combined voices. Are there work arounds? Yes, don't use discreet mode (an advertised feature of the product)… It's simply inexcusable for them to have known about the flaw in the beta testing and to not have addressed it before releasing it to the public. Let me know your thoughts and if you have a contact at Leica AG please PM me with details and I will get started on a draft. Thanks! Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPH1962 Posted November 20, 2013 Share #45 Posted November 20, 2013 PM sent Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pieterpronk Posted November 20, 2013 Share #46 Posted November 20, 2013 No, please don't! Leica seems to have just one guy doing firmware programming in his free time. And we need him focussed on the M240. Stop confusing the poor guy with older models... Although I'm obviously joking I really am afraid that Leica just do not have the resources to focus on both models. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sblitz Posted November 20, 2013 Share #47 Posted November 20, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) since the M-E and MM are both M9 (ME more directly), there is a still a programmer floating around at Leica who could make this fix. in addition, we are talking about a fix not a new code. find the error and fix it, really shouldn't take very long. unless, of course, the person who wrote the code has retired and left the building. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted November 20, 2013 Share #48 Posted November 20, 2013 Be careful what you wish for! A quick fix of a bug often creates othe bugs.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stealth3kpl Posted November 20, 2013 Share #49 Posted November 20, 2013 Yes, all they need to say is "Right you lot, whoever finds and fixes the error wins the Christmas hamper". Job done for the price of a bottle of Blue Nun and a jar of Piccalilli. Pete Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NikonJeff Posted November 20, 2013 Author Share #50 Posted November 20, 2013 Be careful what you wish for! A quick fix of a bug often creates othe bugs.... Uhem… Jaapv - I don't think 18 months since the last botched release qualifies as a "quick fix". I am sincerely hoping that they've been working on a solution all this time :roll eyes: Either way I'm drafting a letter that I am going to actually mail to Solms and then a version that hopefully people will send to them via email. I just can't stand by and do nothing - I really love my Leica cameras and lenses and want to have them work as advertised. I really appreciate all of the comments. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcg Posted November 20, 2013 Share #51 Posted November 20, 2013 ... and lenses and want to have them work as advertised. I think that a better argument is that they should work - as paid for. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted November 20, 2013 Share #52 Posted November 20, 2013 Just to put the cat among the pidgeons, I have to say my M9-P is working fine (so far) in Discreet mode using the latest firmware, 1.196. What that means is that I can't find the problem, but I acknowledge that it exists. I have a 27 year old Saab Aero that periodically just stops! About once every three years. When it gets tray-trucked to the repairer, it is working fine. As he says, if it's working when it gets here, what do I fix? Perhaps there is some sort of parallel with the M9 firmware. The main argument as I see it is that Leica are never very communicative about these things. You take that on board with the camera I'm afraid. Another point relating to what nikonjeff said, "we each sent an email voicing our concern, displeasure, disgust, anger or what have you about their lack of attention". In my considerable experience over the years of dealing with suppliers, I have NEVER found aggressive attitudes to work in my favour (or anyone elses). Courtesy coupled with firmness etc are far more effective tools IMO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NikonJeff Posted November 21, 2013 Author Share #53 Posted November 21, 2013 Just to put the cat among the pidgeons, I have to say my M9-P is working fine (so far) in Discreet mode using the latest firmware, 1.196. What that means is that I can't find the problem, but I acknowledge that it exists. I have a 27 year old Saab Aero that periodically just stops! About once every three years. When it gets tray-trucked to the repairer, it is working fine. As he says, if it's working when it gets here, what do I fix? Perhaps there is some sort of parallel with the M9 firmware. The main argument as I see it is that Leica are never very communicative about these things. You take that on board with the camera I'm afraid. Another point relating to what nikonjeff said, "we each sent an email voicing our concern, displeasure, disgust, anger or what have you about their lack of attention". In my considerable experience over the years of dealing with suppliers, I have NEVER found aggressive attitudes to work in my favour (or anyone elses). Courtesy coupled with firmness etc are far more effective tools IMO. Just to set the record straight - I am not advocating that anyone sends a hateful, venom laden message. I was simply stating that some folks are feeling "concern, displeasure, disgust, anger or what have you". Over the past 12 months since I've contacted Leica about the issue I was having and they acknowledged that they were aware of it, I have probably felt each and every one of those feelings… I still feel that if people wrote or emailed Leica regarding the problem that it should bring attention to the fact they've neglected to address a problem that obviously existed in beta testing that was not resolved. Customer service 101 here... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcg Posted November 21, 2013 Share #54 Posted November 21, 2013 When Leica built film cameras, they knew and you knew that once they put it on the market, it worked correctly and 100%. There was never any need to go back and tweak them or patch them - even if that had been possible. Now things have completely changed. Their digital cameras are now being put on the market and although they work well - they are not 100%. There will be a certain amount of support - but of course, Leica will also be putting resources into developing the next model - which no doubt will also have to be tweaked and patched and will be less than 100%. All digital cameras are like this. Leica's problem is that they charge a huge amount of money and also they are trying to perpetuate their film camera culture in a digital world - and it simply doesn't work any more. In 10 years time, people will still be buying used Leica film cameras - and they will all be perfect. In 10 years time, no one will be buying M8s or M9s - or even M240s. We will be 3 or 4 models on from there - and discussing what we want to see in the next one. If people do buy an Leica digital, it will simply be because they want to get into Leica - but not because they are particularly keen to own one of those models. An M8 or an M9 etc will simply be a cheap way in. Leica can count on the fact that the more time that passes, the less pressure there will be to tweak their firmware. As Leica cameras pass to second-hand, third-hand and fourth-hand owners, those new owners will feel less morally entitled to continuing firmware support from Leica - and of course there will be less of a moral imperative upon Leica to offer that support. This may not be a deliberately callous attitude by Leica - but pure economics of running a profitable company will dictate that this is the way that it has to be. In fact - in a few years time, the shortage of electronic components such as circuit boards and screens etc, will result in our current M8s, M9s, M240s etc simply being scrapped. Whereas it is possible now for skilled craftsmen to produce replacement parts for mechanical film cameras, it will not be possible with electronics. The only way that Leica digital cameras will be maintained in the not-too-distant-future will be through the cannibalisation of broken cameras. This wouldn't happen with any other kind of digital camera - Fuji, Panasonic, Nikon etc - but eventually even the Leica digitals will be thrown away. Leica's present digital cameras aren't even especially complicated/sophisticated yet. As Leica cameras become more "modern" - they will need even more software support and on present form, it makes me shudder - because they don't seem to have what it takes to do the job. Don't forget that it is only with digital technology that Leica has had to be concerned about the quality of a sensor. Before that, all that Leica did was produce a light-sealed box into which photographers could place their sensor of choice - made by Kodak or Ilford or Fuji - or what have you. It wouldn't surprise me if one day Leica decides simply to concentrate on producing excellent third party lenses - which, face it, is what they are really good at anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted November 21, 2013 Share #55 Posted November 21, 2013 Errr... When I bought one of the early M6-s it had to be returned to the factory for rangefinder calibration. Half a year later the electronics had to be replaced.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcg Posted November 21, 2013 Share #56 Posted November 21, 2013 Errr... When I bought one of the early M6-s it had to be returned to the factory for rangefinder calibration. Half a year later the electronics had to be replaced.... Errr, yes, but apart from that, what has Leica ever done for us. Yes, I hadn't thought it out fully enough - but still, for their film range, it really is about mechanics. I still wonder whether people are really going to be prepared to put their large amounts of the filthy lucre into an increasingly computerised camera system which is not going to last the distance - because of a lack of manufacturer support. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted November 21, 2013 Share #57 Posted November 21, 2013 It's a choice you make with full knowledge of how the modern/digital world works. Like it or lump it. It's called pragmatism, I think. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcg Posted November 21, 2013 Share #58 Posted November 21, 2013 It's a choice you make with full knowledge of how the modern/digital world works. Like it or lump it. It's called pragmatism, I think. I'm afraid that this kind of pragmatism is not something which I buy into. I take a far more consumer-facing view - and I think that Leica's competitors do as well. This is why Fuji has released a firmware update for their discontinued X100 model. I would have expected Leica to take such a high level of pride in their products - and also nurture such a sense of family amongst their customer base that they would want to outshine other camera manufacturers in every respect. Personally, I think that this is one of the reasons why people buy into the Leica system. Like it or lump it is about accepting second-best Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NikonJeff Posted November 21, 2013 Author Share #59 Posted November 21, 2013 It's a choice you make with full knowledge of how the modern/digital world works. Like it or lump it. It's called pragmatism, I think. I guess I should stick to my now 6 year old Nikon D3 bodies because they have worked and worked flawlessly since I bought them the moment they were available in November of 2007. Good grief... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcg Posted November 21, 2013 Share #60 Posted November 21, 2013 I guess I should stick to my now 6 year old Nikon D3 bodies because they have worked and worked flawlessly since I bought them the moment they were available in November of 2007. Good grief... Yup - that would be pragmatism. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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