My dream is over.

[jankap]

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As the insurance can only hope, that people don´t "loose" their camera, prices are high.

Long ago I had an insurance for cameras and jewelry. But it was too expensive.

 

For a holiday trip an insurance can be done.

Also with luggage on a voyage, if I always have to have an eye on it, I don't need an insurance.

Jan

 

In 3 days Sony will offer a full framed NEX.

[Indina]

Can't you book an insurance from outside Italy?

[jdlaing]

Can't you book an insurance from outside Italy?

 

Lloyd's of London.

[Michael-IIIf]

they were so smart to use a radio device which intercepts the remote control when I closed the car : found it intact, doors unblocked..

 

These are readily available devices which block the 'lock' command signal from your key fob. They rely on the fact that most car owners are walking away as they press their key fob's button.

 

The lesson to learn here is to always watch and listen to ensure your car has locked.

 

As an owner of exclusively Italian cars over thirty years, with their inherent reputation for erratic electrics, I've long been in the habit of not only waiting to hear the alarm arming itself but I physically check the door's handle before I walk away. I do it for two reasons: it reassures me that my car's dodgy Italian central-locking has actually worked, and it shows anyone watching me that the car is locked.

[Michael-IIIf]

they were so smart to use a radio device which intercepts the remote control when I closed the car : found it intact, doors unblocked..

 

What did your insurers say?

 

Here in the UK they would refuse to cover the loss because you, in their eyes, failed to secure your car. There have been numerous cases in the UK of insurers refusing to pay when burglars have stolen cars after having stolen the keys from owners' homes - for the same reasoning.

[jankap]

These are readily available devices which block the 'lock' command signal from your key fob. They rely on the fact that most car owners are walking away as they press their key fob's button.

The lesson to learn here is to always watch and listen to ensure your car has locked.

 

Can´t you let switch off the wireless (un)locking facility? It seems, that you don´t need it and don´t want it. It is not old-fashioned to trust hardware locks only.

OK, opening the car electronically remains as a feature.

Jan

[marcg]

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I'm sorry to add to your chagrin, but people may as well know that recovery of stolen property in countries such as Italy, France, Spain and other European jurisdictions is complicated by their laws which say that once stolen goods have been sold on to a bona fide purchaser, the original owner loses title to the goods and can only recover against the thief - or a bad faith purchaser.

 

If you are going to have your goods stolen then best to do it in an Anglo-Saxon jurisdiction where the ownership of goods remains with the original owner despite the chain of sales/transfer of the item.

 

As a caveat, I should say this was true of European laws about 10 yrs ago. I don't think that it has changed.

[lucerne]

MarcG +1

 

No offence meant to our Italian forum members but having heard about the activities of thieves in Italian cities - (there are thieves in cities worldwide)- , during my travel in Italy last week I had some extreme strategies in place to secure my kit to my body or else to any available fixed object. Bungee chords and miniature padlocks! As it turned out, no one took any notice of my M9-P and I didn't use a traditional camera bag. I did visit the new Leica boutique in Florence but was underwhelmed by its sparseness and difficult-to-find location. At least I was able to handle the latest products.

 

As Marcg reports, the European Union doesn't have unification in all aspects of law.

 

Assignment in European Private International Law: Claims as Property and the ... - Axel Flessner, Hendrik Verhagen - Google Books

 

Does Passport cover theft and is it unconditional?

[joeswe]

I'm sorry to add to your chagrin, but people may as well know that recovery of stolen property in countries such as Italy, France, Spain and other European jurisdictions is complicated by their laws which say that once stolen goods have been sold on to a bona fide purchaser, the original owner loses title to the goods and can only recover against the thief - or a bad faith purchaser.

 

If you are going to have your goods stolen then best to do it in an Anglo-Saxon jurisdiction where the ownership of goods remains with the original owner despite the chain of sales/transfer of the item.

 

As a caveat, I should say this was true of European laws about 10 yrs ago. I don't think that it has changed.

 

You are generalizing about "European laws". Europe consists of ca. 50 nations. While what you say here might be true for Italy, it is surely not true for Germany and probably many other national laws, in spite of their not being Anglo-Saxon.

[marcg]

Of course I am generalising. I think that was very clear from my post. You are probably right that German follows something akin to the Anglo-Saxon Common Law approach - but the reason is not because it "surely" must be so. It would be because some German law makes an exception to the law relating to good faith purchases. Maybe you can tell us what that law is.

 

Switzerland will recognise good faith purchases. Austria does not where the good is stolen.

 

One would have to look specifically at the relevant law of each EU state. Fortunately there are far fewer than 50 of them.

[Andi_77]

Are you sure about this? In Italy there are laws about "incauto acquisto" (literally "non careful purhcase) stating basically that if you buy something without checking thoroughly whether the seller has the right to sell those items, then you can't complain if the goods are confiscated because they're stolen. This is obviously a "rough" and badly translation anyway.

 

Regarding the rest: I totally agree on the fact that some places in Italy aren't safe, but I've spent years in France and in the UK and honestly I didn't notice a significant difference.

And again, I could tell you about an entire day I spent walking in the "Quartieri Spagnoli" in Naples with a Contax camera and lenses and not finding myself in risky situations at all.

 

But then I think about my car and my M9 and... well, I don't know, I guess our situation here is pretty bad, but not as bad as its perception/reputation.

Then, if you ask me, I feel safer in Switzerland (as an example) than in Italy. Undoubtedly.

[marcg]

Yes, I'm pretty certain. This is why jurisdictions such as Italy and Switzerland are so attractive to art thieves.

Steal your paintings and then ship them to one of these jurisdictions and arrange a good faith purchase.

 

It is a sort of stolen property laundering.

Once there is a new "legal" owner then they can be shipped back to the USA or to UK because the Common Law courts will recognise the new ownership of stolen goods if that ownership has been properly established under a recognised jurisdiction - such as Italian.

 

It is a question of balancing the interests of the loser against those of the good faith purchaser.

Some system favour the loser. Others favour the good faith purchaser. It is a difficult choice.

 

You may be amused to know that the French government plays it both ways.

They recognise the interests of good faith purchasers for goods stolen from the Citoyen - but where it comes to state-owned goods, then they adopt the Anglo Saxon system. This means that under French Law, art objects which are stolen from French Museums continue to belong to the state regardless of how they have been sold.

Egalité? ...er, Non.

[joeswe]

Of course I am generalising. I think that was very clear from my post. You are probably right that German follows something akin to the Anglo-Saxon Common Law approach - but the reason is not because it "surely" must be so. It would be because some German law makes an exception to the law relating to good faith purchases. Maybe you can tell us what that law is.

 

Switzerland will recognise good faith purchases. Austria does not where the good is stolen.

 

One would have to look specifically at the relevant law of each EU state. Fortunately there are far fewer than 50 of them.

 

First, the number of 50 was based on the point that you were writing about "European jurisdictions", not "EU jurisdictions" (number of EU countries: 19; number of European countries: 46 or something)

 

Now, some examples to show that in this specific case, a simplification like "England vs. the rest of Europe" leads nowhere. Specifically, it is not true that in "[...] France, Spain and other European countries [...] once stolen goods have been sold on to a bona fide purchaser, the original owner loses title to the goods".

AFAIK, the only major European countries for which your claims are true are Italy and Sweden. In France, the original owner can reclaim the stolen (or lost) good from a bona fide purchaser within three years after the date of loss. Spanish law (in spite of its close links to French civil law) rules out legitimate ownership through a bona fide purchase of stolen goods (Art 464-I, Código civil). More examples of countries that rule out ownership through bona fide purchase of stolen or lost goods (with some minor exceptions that are irrelevant to the case in discussion here) or give the previous owner an unconditional right to reclaim them: Germany (Art 935 BGB), Greece, Estonia, Austria and Hungary.

Countries that will recognize a bona fide purchase of stolen or lost things only after certain period of time has elapsed (usually 3 years, in some cases 5 years): Switzerland, France, Poland, Romania, Netherlands etc.

 

Now, let me conclude by saying that I am a layman in legal things, and will gladly stand to be corrected in case I have erred, my main source being:

Das europäische Sachenrecht: eine rechtsvergleichende Analyse nach der ... - Dieter Krimphove - Google Books page 365 ff.

 

@Andi

sorry for taking this thread OT, I feel very sorry for your loss

[marcg]

First, the number of 50 was based on the point that you were writing about "European jurisdictions", not "EU jurisdictions" (number of EU countries: 19; number of European countries: 46 or something)

 

Now, some examples to show that in this specific case, a simplification like "England vs. the rest of Europe" leads nowhere. Specifically, it is not true that in "[...] France, Spain and other European countries [...] once stolen goods have been sold on to a bona fide purchaser, the original owner loses title to the goods".

AFAIK, the only major European countries for which your claims are true are Italy and Sweden. In France, the original owner can reclaim the stolen (or lost) good from a bona fide purchaser within three years after the date of loss. Spanish law (in spite of its close links to French civil law) rules out legitimate ownership through a bona fide purchase of stolen goods (Art 464-I, Código civil). More examples of countries that rule out ownership through bona fide purchase of stolen or lost goods (with some minor exceptions that are irrelevant to the case in discussion here) or give the previous owner an unconditional right to reclaim them: Germany (Art 935 BGB), Greece, Estonia, Austria and Hungary.

Countries that will recognize a bona fide purchase of stolen or lost things only after certain period of time has elapsed (usually 3 years, in some cases 5 years): Switzerland, France, Poland, Romania, Netherlands etc.

 

Now, let me conclude by saying that I am a layman in legal things, and will gladly stand to be corrected in case I have erred, my main source being:

Das europäische Sachenrecht: eine rechtsvergleichende Analyse nach der ... - Dieter Krimphove - Google Books page 365 ff.

 

@Andi

sorry for taking this thread OT, I feel very sorry for your loss

 

That's all right then.

[marcg]

... by the way, don't forget obligations on the original owner to pay compensation to the bona fide purchaser within the time periods you refer to - in many jurisdictions. Another generalisation but I think that this includes France

[luigi bertolotti]

What did your insurers say?

 

Here in the UK they would refuse to cover the loss because you, in their eyes, failed to secure your car. There have been numerous cases in the UK of insurers refusing to pay when burglars have stolen cars after having stolen the keys from owners' homes - for the same reasoning.

 

Well, my insurance hadn't problems to cover the value of the HP Notebook PC which was the only "prey"... a value of 700 Euro or so (and, I remember, 25 Euros specifically for the value of the bag... ).. they accepted as a proof my formal declaration to police and the notification to HP of the s/n of the stolen PC; of course in those cases the main hassle is to rebulid system and data on the new PC (supposed one HAS the backup... the 100% data backup was on a DVD... inside the bag itself... ... the "2nd level backup" was around 90% of data, secure at home...)

[Shade]

I'm so sorry that happened to you, I bet it really sucks - I hope you'll end up with something good

[Shade]

I've long been in the habit of not only waiting to hear the alarm arming itself but I physically check the door's handle before I walk away.

 

I do it on ANY and ALL cars that I drive. Be it mine, my company's, my friends. On "dangerous" grounds I even go to the extent of checking ALL doors. Paranoia galore I know.

[tobey bilek]

There are devices that can read the electronic code from key fob lockers and people sit in parking lots with them. Lock the doors manually.

 

Also do not move items to the trunk (boot) in the lot. Do it before you get there.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[jim sink]

I once had a 125lb. male German Shepherd. I never worried about my house or car being broken into. He passed a few years ago and now I worry all the time.

The best protection I ever had.