The Sony A7 thread [Merged]

[naturephoto1]

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Hi all,

 

Back from PhotoPlus from yesterday. I am going to try to fill you in regarding the Sony A7r in this rather lengthy discourse that I am going to try to tie together. If we feel that we should post this elsewhere as well I will.

 

First let me say that the Sony booth had a whole area set up with fixed lenses with both A7 and A7r cameras available for testing and then another area where there were A7 and A7r cameras set up where lenses could be changed. Unfortunately all of the cameras were pre-production and even though we could load our own lenses providing we had an adapter we were unable to load any memory cards. But even if we had we would have no way of reading the files since the cameras did not have the latest firmware. So, at best, all we could do was to have the opportunity to handle the cameras and to see what would be on the screen.

 

I spoke to Mike Bubolo, National Manager Photo Specialty for Sales at Sony and he and others at the Sony booth knew that I was there to report back to both this forum as well as to Fredmirnada.com regarding the camera. Unfortunately the only M mount lens that I had was the Minolta CLE MC 40mm f2.0 Rokkor-M lens and unfortunately no WA Leica or Zeiss RF lenses. According to Mike, there are actually around 4 or 5 Production cameras that are available for testing (in the US?) and that if I called he could probably get me one to try. But, here in is the rub, even if I get a camera, for the sake of getting a better idea as to the performance of the camera with WA RF lenses I have none available at this time.

 

As to the camera itself, it is really quite small and light and the camera handled and balanced quite well. The EVF was a big improvement over the one for my Fujifilm X-E1. I believe anyone accustomed to an EVF will be quite pleased. It was bright and very contrasty. I was able to load both M mount and Leica R lenses onto the camera but as I indicated we could not save any images to memory cards. I know that Paul of Phigment Tech will be quite pleased that when we loaded the Phigment Tech Leica M to NEX adapter onto the camera with my Minolta CLE MC 40mm f2.0 Rokkor-M lens the camera immediately recognized the adapter and lens. I did not see any issues and as soon as I adjusted the focus on the lens the camera automatically shifted to magnified view, just as it is supposed to. The only questions that I had about this at the time is where the focusing point was on the screen and whether I could move it or we had to go through the menus to allow for this. At this point I do not recall. When we switched over to the Novoflex Leica R to NEX adapter with my Leica R 24mm f2.8 lens we had some problems. We could not figure out how to get to the magnified view for using the lens but we could access the Focus Peaking and adjust the peaking for different colors. The cameras are so new that almost no one knows their way around the menus and operation. Mike Bubolo of Sony ran over to one of the Sony Tech Engineers and came back with the answer and after going through the menus we were able to find and lock in this option to use the lens.

 

As to the camera shutter, it was a solid click and perhaps a bit louder than some would like. I asked one of the Sony reps about the comparison in sound with the A7 and he indicated that when using the second shutter it was a little but not that much quieter.

 

While I was at the Sony booth I also took out my Leica R 280mm f4 Apo Telyt just for size comparison for the camera and no question the lens did look large compared to the camera. I did not load the lens onto the camera, The Sony Rep was impressed by the size of the lens by the way.

 

As to lenses I spoke with both Richard Schleuning, National Sales Manager for Zeiss and Justin Stailey of Leica Camera USA. Richard told me that the Sony lenses for the A7 and the A7r cameras were being designed and made by Sony. In the case of the Zeiss autofocus lenses that had the Zeiss name on them, these were designed by Zeiss, manufactured by Sony and would go through Zeiss QC checks. When I asked Richard about WA RF lenses for the Sony A7r camera he indicated that they (Zeiss) already knew about the outcome of WA RF lenses used on the camera and regardless of the new Sony 36MP sensor along with the gapless microlenses there were going to be problems with the WA RF lenses. In fact, Richard indicated that there were going to be problems with their own existing RF WA lenses with the camera and sensor. He indicated that this was due to the steepness in the angle for the light rays to reach the sensor. When I asked Richard about the MF lenses that Zeiss was going to make, he indicated that Zeiss had just decided to go forward to make them several days ago and at this point they did not know what focal lengths or the number of lenses that they planned to make (at this time). Richard suggested that lenses would probably be available for show at Photokina next year (2014). He also indicated that the lenses would be coming from Zeiss and not from Sony. He indicated that Zeiss understood the problems of using adapters with lens (and RF lenses) and they were going to look at their existing designs to try to figure out what they would use including possibly Distagon or Sonnar (not Biogon I believe to issues) and that the lenses would have native mounts with the adapter (lengths?) built in and they would have all of the contacts and interaction with these new lenses and with the camera bodies themselves. That way there would be communication between the camera and these new lenses.

 

Richard Schleuning of Zeiss suggested that only those owning RF WA lenses already lenses should consider using these lenses on the Sony A7r due to the steepness of the angle. He indicated that those that do not have RF WA should not go out and purchase them. Rather he suggested that we either get SLR lenses or better yet wait for the MF lenses that Zeiss had coming in the future. I mentioned to Richard then that SLR lenses would include the Zeiss current line along with their previous generation, as well as the Contax lenses that Zeiss had designed and he agreed.

 

When I spoke with Justin Stailey of Leica about the Sony A7 and A7r he expressed some concern about the weight of the cameras when used with long lenses (the light weight at the end of tripod mounted lens). Justin also indicated that he had real question about using WA RF lenses and the performance of the A7r even with the gapless microlenses for the new 36MP sensor. Justin indicated that Leica knew all of the ins and outs and problems involved with RF WA lenses used for the M cameras and presumably for the new Sony cameras as well. In fact Justin indicated that he did not think that Zeiss much less Sony knew all of the issues when using WA RF lenses with the M cameras and probably also with the new Sony A7r. Justin indicated that he did not believe that the RF WA lenses wider than 35mm would work well on the new Sony A7r without issues and he expected smearing, vignetting, color issues, etc. would be issues. Justin also seems to have had some question of the performance of the new Sony with even some of the longer Leica M lenses. When I asked Justin the possibility of having Leica make lenses that would fit the new Sony A7 cameras, he indicated that even after the completion of the new Factory in Wetzlar that they would not have enough skilled labor to be able to keep up with the production of their own equipment.

 

So, there we have it as to using RF WA glass for the new Sonya A7r, we will have to wait for testing of these lenses with the camera and to then decide for ourselves based upon the reported results and what is acceptable for any corrections that can be made for the digital files. We will either have to decide on the lenses that may prove to produce good or better results (with or without additional work), purchase SLR WA glass in the meantime or wait the 11? or more months for the release of the Zeiss MF lenses (and we still have no idea of their designs, size, weight, or cost).

 

Rich

[CaptZoom]

Thank you for all the effort you put into this for us.

 

 

Hi all,

 

Back from PhotoPlus from yesterday. I am going to try to fill you in regarding the Sony A7r in this rather lengthy discourse that I am going to try to tie together. If we feel that we should post this elsewhere as well I will....

[lct]

....when we loaded the Phigment Tech Leica M to NEX adapter onto the camera with my Minolta CLE MC 40mm f2.8 Rokkor-M lens the camera immediately recognized the adapter and lens...

You meant the M-Rokkor 40/2 i guess. Pity that you had not the tiny M-Rokkor 28/2.8 or any other M wides with you. Will be for the next time hopefully. Thank you for reporting these news for us anyway.

[Thomas Chen]

I think you'll not be happy with the WATE on the a7r.

 

If WATE is O.K. with the Nex 7 then it will be alright on the A7R under the "Crop Mode" rather than "FF mode" !

[naturephoto1]

You meant the M-Rokkor 40/2 i guess. Pity that you had not the tiny M-Rokkor 28/2.8 or any other M wides with you. Will be for the next time hopefully. Thank you for reporting these news for us anyway.

 

Yes, sorry, corrected that.

 

Rich

[jackk]

Sorry to deflect the discussion.

 

In my experience, Amazon deduct only when they can deliver. Pre-orders and out of stock are not charged until in stock.

 

The unsecured comment relates to the issue of insolvency. Unless you have protective legislation, if you pay a deposit for goods not delivered, your money goes into the insolvency. You can't insist on a complete refund.

 

Effectively, the vendors can use that money however they like, and you cannot require the liquidator to give you a camera, if it arrives. The camera supplier probably won't have been paid, and they will almost certainly have the right to take the stock back.

 

You will get your money back only from any money left after secured creditors (usually banks) have been paid, suppliers have recovered secured stock, and remaining stock and assets flogged off cheap. Unsecured creditors tend to get nothing much.

 

Where items are stock, or in demand, I would never pay a deposit. There's no reason to. I have and never would pay a deposit for camera gear (actually, that's not quite true - I did once, and was pleased I did when Leica tried to cancel the order in breach of contract).

 

Cheers

John

 

Sorry for going off topic. The camera shop which had been in business for the past 15 years told me the camera would come in faster if it is paid in full. Stupid me paid for the camera in full on Aug 29th. They filed bankruptcy two weeks ago.

 

I loss $300 from cancelling the B&H order due to exchange rate. Didn't realize they charge the credit card immediately for any foreign orders...

 

I filed a charge back claim with Visa. Hopefully I'll get my $ back through the charge back after saving for 3 years to buy the camera.... sad

 

Guess one has to be SUPER patient when it comes to buying a Leica camera. I'll never pay for something that is not in stock & expensive, in full, lesson learned.

[algrove]

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Thanks Rich

 

Sounds like you were busy and getting pulled left and right with different opinions.

 

My basic question about R lens images thrown at the FF sensor were not clear to me. I perhaps falsely have the idea that due to the large throat of the R lenses that any vignetting of some wide R lenses might actually occur off the edge of the FF sensor. Did you get any confirmation of this or see anything when using your 24 R?

 

For example, I see no vignetting on my M when using the R 15/2.8. Could this be the same with the Sony is my basic question?

[naturephoto1]

Thanks Rich

 

Sounds like you were busy and getting pulled left and right with different opinions.

 

My basic question about R lens images thrown at the FF sensor were not clear to me. I perhaps falsely have the idea that due to the large throat of the R lenses that any vignetting of some wide R lenses might actually occur off the edge of the FF sensor. Did you get any confirmation of this or see anything when using your 24 R?

 

For example, I see no vignetting on my M when using the R 15/2.8. Could this be the same with the Sony is my basic question?

 

Lou,

 

I don't know about lenses as wide as the 15mm f28 R lens. As I mentioned, I only brought the 24mm f2.8 R lens and didn't even bring my R 21mm f4 Super Angulon. Even the R Super Angulon is not nearly as wide as the 15mm. At this point, there just aren't enough cameras available to test with all of the possible combinations of lenses to say nothing about the number of available 15mm f2.8 R lenses.

 

On the screen I saw no vignetting with the 24mm Elmarit lens. If you or anyone do go forward with the purchase of the A7r and for using something as expensive and heavy as that lens, I would definitely invest in one of the better adapters like the Novoflex. It is no worth gambling on issues. We will have to wait till someone has one of the cameras with the lens. And it may have to be you.

 

Rich

[algrove]

Rich

 

Let's not go that far. I am a Leica guy!

 

But wait I am also a Hassy guy. And a Phase One guy. And a 5Diii guy. And an RX-1 guy. So could I become an a7r guy? Perhaps since I use different systems for different needs. Do I need an a7r? No, but will I try one? Perhaps. Trouble is I would have to forego that 28/2.8 I was thinking of getting. $2300 versus $2300. The Sony $2300 might become $1000, but the Leica $2300 will become $2500 and more over the years.

 

Lou

 

P.S. Not one person has yet to confirm or deny my large image throat thoughts about using R lenses on the a7r. Thanks for mentioning you saw no vignetting on the EVF or LCD with your R 24. Maybe a good sign.

[colonel]

on a slight tangent, some nutty guy has tried a bunch of Nex lens on the A7r. He is not allowed to publish the results but says, interestingly, that although the 10-18mm vignettes heavily at the end of its range the 14mm FL is quite good and is easily clean-upable in PP.

Its a damn fine lens and getting a cheap 14mm (well for me as I have it already) looks promising.

Hey ho, back to Leica ....

[algrove]

Since we're all nutty, your comment does not narrow down the list of culprits at all.

[250swb]

When I asked Richard about WA RF lenses for the Sony A7r camera he indicated that they (Zeiss) already knew about the outcome of WA RF lenses used on the camera and regardless of the new Sony 36MP sensor along with the gapless microlenses there were going to be problems with the WA RF lenses. In fact, Richard indicated that there were going to be problems with their own existing RF WA lenses with the camera and sensor.

 

Richard, thank you for comprehensive report. Are you able to elaborate on what was meant by Wide Angle RF during your discussions? On the Steve Huff site there is conjecture (to be tested soon) that it is only RF lenses wider than 28mm that will have a problem, so 24mm and wider.

 

Steve

[naturephoto1]

Richard, thank you for comprehensive report. Are you able to elaborate on what was meant by Wide Angle during your discussions? On the Steve Huff site there is conjecture (to be tested soon) that it is only lenses wider than 28mm that will have a problem, so 24mm and wider.

 

Steve

 

Steve,

 

The term WA for RF was never stipulated on any part by me or by Richard at Zeiss. He just made the blanket statement about WA RF lenses and specifically the Zeiss WA RF lenses. In the case of Justin Stailey from Leica, he stated from 35mm and wider and he also was unsure about my Minolta CLE MC 40mm f2 Rokkor-M lens. Justin also made it a point that things were going to depend upon the exit pupil of the design of the WA RF lenses which is something that I forgot to mention in my review.

 

I really do not think Sony, Zeiss, or Leica are ready to commit at this point and I believe it is going to come down to lens design and focal length by lens design and focal length of each available RF WA lens. Of course everyone will have to make their own judgement call as to what is acceptable and how much work that may have to be done for different degrees of performance. We will have to wait for the reviews to come in at this point especially with so few available production cameras.

 

Rich

[wildlightphoto]

Rich, thanks for your a7 report. Do you have any impressions of the viewfinder you care to mention? Responsiveness and ability to focus manually w/o magnification are important to me.

[jdlaing]

Why?

 

It darkens from the center third out and the corners are soft at all three focal lengths.

[wildlightphoto]

P.S. Not one person has yet to confirm or deny my large image throat thoughts about using R lenses on the a7r. Thanks for mentioning you saw no vignetting on the EVF or LCD with your R 24. Maybe a good sign.

 

I'd expect the long non-telephoto lenses such as the f/6.8 Telyts to have a greater risk of vignetting due to the throat diameter.

[k-hawinkler]

It darkens from the center third out and the corners are soft at all three focal lengths.

 

 

Thanks, I appreciate your feedback.

I assume it's based on real data, but you cannot elaborate.

Soft corners kills it of course.

 

Are there any WA Leica M lenses that work?

[CheshireCat]

On the Steve Huff site there is conjecture (to be tested soon) that it is only RF lenses wider than 28mm that will have a problem, so 24mm and wider.

Steve

 

That is a generic assumption, and as such it is both true and false

 

In reality, lens design is more important than FL as far as the issue is concerned.

"How much retrofocus" the design is will make the difference. For this reason, I am optimistic about R wides, but a bit concerned about "semi-retrofocus" designs like the SEM21, which is usually wide enough for me.

 

I will be totally happy if the only problem is color vignetting, as all we need to fix it is good software and lens profiles.

Smearing is the real showstopper, and we need to wait for the samples to know.

 

That said, I am ready to sell my beloved SEM21 if Zeiss comes out with something as good for the NEX, even if sligtly bigger... Because I am not an overweight dentist

[CheshireCat]

It darkens from the center third out and the corners are soft at all three focal lengths.

 

Thanks for the feedback, even if it's very bad news.

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[algrove]

I'd expect the long non-telephoto lenses such as the f/6.8 Telyts to have a greater risk of vignetting due to the throat diameter.

 

What about the chance that R wides could throw any vignetting off and beyond the FF sensor edge?