MirekE Posted October 19, 2013 Share #1121 Posted October 19, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) For a year I have been dithering over whether to get an M or not, I have an M9. This week, in fact today, was going to put me money down, and join the queue, but last night saw the Sony A7r release. Smaller, cheaper, full frame , with a shed load of mega 'pixies' to round up photons, focus peaking, can take M lenses. Its native lenses are Zeiss which often are close or equal to Leica glass. Then there is the forth coming 55m Zeiss Distagon which will cost a lot but less than a Summicron apo and I will bet money marbles or chalk it will be as good, or as near as damn it. I love my Monchrome, so colour is a back up for me. So change of plans, not going to the camera shop, but now waiting till December to take a gander at the A7r . The A7r seems to do every thing I want from the M, and at that price can keep my M9 for when I want a 'messsucher' moment. The Sony will be more versatile - higher ISO, some AF lenses, access to newly designed Zeiss glass, likely better implementation of LV and EVF, more control, autumn leaves mode and whatnot. The values of the Sony are ephemeral - there will be higher resolution next year, higher ISO, faster FPS and better display. You will be tempted to upgrade again. And again. Leica builds on different values. Pick the one which is closer to your heart (or dominant brain hemisphere). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 19, 2013 Posted October 19, 2013 Hi MirekE, Take a look here The Sony A7 thread [Merged]. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
lct Posted October 19, 2013 Share #1122 Posted October 19, 2013 ...Tim seems to imply that RF is THE focussing method when you are shooting planar (and I assume parallel to the sensor plane) objects at small apertures. If I understand him right? This seems contrary to 'street', 'decisive moment' (bleh), documentary, precious Noctilux lenses etc. The implication (mine) is that EVF and peaking would be more suitable for everything except planar high DoF shots? At which apertures? Do you really expect accurate and fast focusings at, say, f/11 let alone f/16 with an EVF? And if you have to choose a larger aperture to focus accurately, what special help any EVF can give to avoid focus shifts then? Just curious. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilliamsphotography Posted October 19, 2013 Share #1123 Posted October 19, 2013 Keep in mind if we compare apples to apples (24MP) then the a7 costs $5300 less than the M 240. If you are getting the 36MP model of course your comparison works, but it is really apples (MI-my home state) and oranges (FL-my current residence). I too continue to be at one with my SWC. IMO, the comparison can't be pulled out of context. The two cameras can never meet an Apples-to-Apples criteria because the M240 is a FF digital rangefinder, and nothing else is. My specific interest is purely the use of the excellent M lenses I have on a small, very high resolution camera ... for limited applications in exploring color work that doesn't warrant $7,000 ... for me. For the same reason, I don't think I would go out and buy a bunch of Leica M lenses just for this camera either. For others who are more interested in color photography the rangefinder way ... a M9 or M240 trumps anything else. I get that, and have no argument what-so-ever. On the IQ side of the comparison: IMO, Leica opened themselves up when they went CMOS in order to expand the capabilities of the M system (those extra capabilities faring poorly in comparison IMO) ... so now, it'll be interesting to evaluate image qualities from another CMOS camera from a company who's FF sensors are familiar to me in a positive way ... but one that I've never had the ability to use my M lenses on, until now ... and it doesn't matter if I can't use all of them ... 35/1.4 ASPH, 50/0,95 ASPH and and 75AA will do just fine. BTW, I am slowly becoming one with my M Monochrome, something not really present since I sold my M7s to go digital. - Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted October 19, 2013 Share #1124 Posted October 19, 2013 The Sony will be more versatile - higher ISO, some AF lenses, access to newly designed Zeiss glass, likely better implementation of LV and EVF, more control, autumn leaves mode and whatnot. The values of the Sony are ephemeral - there will be higher resolution next year, higher ISO, faster FPS and better display. You will be tempted to upgrade again. And again. Leica builds on different values. Pick the one which is closer to your heart (or dominant brain hemisphere). Come on now. Leica counts on us upgrading time and time again too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted October 19, 2013 Share #1125 Posted October 19, 2013 Sure. I'm not sure what percentage or M users are serious WA users. Nor which percentage are "optical RF or nothing". The remaining percentage who shoot 35 and up and just want a modern body, excellent sensor and M glass is also a mystery. But one I'd be calculating if I were Leica. I think that Leica gets this but does not currently have the technology to provide an EVF shooting experience comparable to the A7's. Surely they had this usage in mind when they went to live view with a clip on EVF as a supplement to RF focusing/optical framing. Leica would also like to sell 24-70 zooms and numerous other lenses besides the ones they currently offer. As for stopped down focus peaking. I have some observations based on using a Nikon 60 Micro on a Nex 6. Attached is a photo of the LCD showing the peaking with the lens stopped down to f16 on a very overcast day. It is pretty easy to use the focus peaking but stopped down this far but it really depends on having enough contrast in the subject's edges. It still seems to work with some precision almost as if it is a larger aperture so you can still adjust for precise focus. The amount of peaking does not spread out as you stop down to cover a larger amount of depth of field. But it does decrease a bit in most? situations when stopped down pretty far. Peculiarly, the focus peaking does not show up as well on the EVF as it does on the LCD. I can't understand this and don't know if this can be changed in some way or if the A7 will have the same results. Also once I stopped down to f22, the refresh rate slowed down. I don't know exactly what level of light triggers this but I think if you are shooting in dim light at small apertures, the camera will be on a tripod and you won't be trying to judge the peak of action. Well maybe if you are using a flash. Using the EVF has taken me a while to adjust to and I can't say I would always prefer it to any kind of optical viewing - a good SLR or RF. But with use I get more and more comfortable with it. I think it works well in general and in dim light. But in bright sunlight, we are used to our viewfinder being as bright as our environment. So it takes a little while for your eye to adjust when looking through it. I'll have to try manually setting it to its brightest position on a sunny day. Perhaps this is what Sony is getting at when they say the contrast in the A7's EVF is three times higher than in the A99. Considering how small the Nex 6 is and what it can do, it is an incredibly good way to work with such a little versatile camera. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/214267-the-sony-a7-thread-merged/?do=findComment&comment=2445918'>More sharing options...
algrove Posted October 19, 2013 Share #1126 Posted October 19, 2013 But we can agree on significantly cheaper, I presume? If it was 10 or 50 dollars then I completely agree. But we're in the thousands. I have no argument there or as a matter of fact with what most say. If the A7R/A7 can work for you at some point then go for it. 3 Sony's for the price of an M is a huge difference. Will it function for most of us without our beloved RF? Maybe, maybe not. There is nothing wrong with EVF usage if it works for you. Like the RF, the EVF is not for everyone. I personally do not need an RF camera to take what I believe are pleasing images. Do I use the RF on my M's? Better believe it. Do I use the EVF's on my M's? Better believe it-mostly with R lenses. I often use cameras that do not even have light meters. Does that mean I cannot get good exposure? No, I use what is available to create what I am after. If I got the A7R would I use the RF? Oh, it does not have one so I would use what it offers, an EVF to create what I am after. Comparisons where MP are pitted against different MP are not worthy comparisons. And as was pointed out RF versus non-RF are also strange comparisons to make. We are all human and we compare what we think might work for us. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwbell Posted October 19, 2013 Share #1127 Posted October 19, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) The whole reason for Leica M. Is to slow down take the time to focus , expose , compose , and enjoy the art of photography . Take in the smooth uncluttered quality feel of the tool in your hand . Use the little gem of lenses , walk around without carrying a backpack full of gear, and taking pictures instead of messing around with menus. If the Sony sensor which is more then likely the same as the Nikon d800 is not going to give you much more quality of image then the M I have done the tests in my showroom and it could not even hold up against the M9 I would consider picking one up to play around with but replace an M .? Not a chance Funny. Different strokes, different folks. Since the M240 sports a (poor) EVF I've noticed basically a total contradiction to your point. Using the EVF I get total framing control, I get WYSYWIG exposure control prior to taking the shot. I've found myself tuning the aperture an awful lot to fine tune my DoF, even tweaking the focus to have the zone juuuuust not touch so thing too close in the background but still render the subject acceptably sharp - like moving the classic 1/3 - 2/3 DoF split slightly more towards 1/4 - 3/4, sometimes the other way towards 1/2 - 1/2. Basically slowing down, precise focus, precise exposure, precise composition.....but wait, no rangefinder!!!! Actually. Not true. If timing is important to the image, I'll set everything up as above, then switch into RF mode knowing I'm dialled in and remove the massive lag and blackout from tg equation. When do I use the inaccurate zero feedback rangefinder? When it's too quick to do all I list above! The RF methodology has become my run and gun mode. I'll stop down to add buffer front and rear and go quick, loose comp, accept metered exposure and see what comes out in the wash. So as you can see, I find the EVF method forces me to be the considers shooter a Leica is supposed to make you. Which is how I noticed the enormous shortcomings in Leica's electronics and coding. So the A7 r should represent a huge improvement in that method. As for the sensor being not even up to the M9? Please. Even the hardest Leica fanboy is gonna raise an eyebrow at the one...... Edit : should also add that the size thing applies tot the A7 r just as much (maybe more) and that your "messing around with menus" is my "moving the centre focus point and being able to maintain accurate focus in a non bullseye composition" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted October 19, 2013 Share #1128 Posted October 19, 2013 Rich I am sure those of us who cannot get to the Expo would be most appreciative of any insight you may have garnered while "playing" with the a7R using M and R glass. Thanks. Lou Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
naturephoto1 Posted October 19, 2013 Share #1129 Posted October 19, 2013 RichI am sure those of us who cannot get to the Expo would be most appreciative of any insight you may have garnered while "playing" with the a7R using M and R glass. Thanks. Lou Lou, It is not a problem. I am glad that I can do this providing Sony allows me to connect the lenses. I just wish I was able to find someone that was attending the show that had either an M 21mm or 24mm lens that we could check. Rich Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
iforum Posted October 19, 2013 Share #1130 Posted October 19, 2013 despite all this technical hoola dancing the images will remain same old same old:p Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted October 19, 2013 Share #1131 Posted October 19, 2013 Yeah, that all started with post #229 when I had a few minutes at lunch to unload a couple thoughts to stir it up a little. It was so long I'm surprised anyone bothered to wade through it. And, I agree, it is kind nice around here like this (civil, I mean). The sick part about this for me is that I'll probably keep the RX1 and the A7R and... the M240. Hey, off topic, sort of, but wait 'till I post a picture if the A7R and my 280/2.8 APO stacked with a couple APO extenders. Or, imagine the modular Tele R system with the little A7R on it (I don't own that, maybe Lou is hiding that one in his collection?). Who'd have thunk this would be the look of future photography? Which Lou do you mean? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
naturephoto1 Posted October 19, 2013 Share #1132 Posted October 19, 2013 Which Lou do you mean? Are you referring to me? Did I get your name wrong? Sorry if I did, I am trying to remember as many names here as I can. Rich Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted October 19, 2013 Share #1133 Posted October 19, 2013 Lou, It is not a problem. I am glad that I can do this providing Sony allows me to connect the lenses. I just wish I was able to find someone that was attending the show that had either an M 21mm or 24mm lens that we could check. Rich When is the show? I mean the dates of it. Where are you located? East coast? Maybe you can get an M wide in your hands before you trek into the show. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
naturephoto1 Posted October 19, 2013 Share #1134 Posted October 19, 2013 When is the show? I mean the dates of it. Where are you located? East coast? Maybe you can get an M wide in your hands before you trek into the show. I live near Allentown, PA which is about 60 miles north of Philadelphia. I will be driving to Islen (Metropark), NJ and taking NJ transit train into NYC to attend the show at the Javits Center on Thursday, October 24. The runs from 10:00 to 5:00 on Thursday. Rich Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MirekE Posted October 19, 2013 Share #1135 Posted October 19, 2013 Come on now. Leica counts on us upgrading time and time again too. Of course. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stealth3kpl Posted October 19, 2013 Share #1136 Posted October 19, 2013 Retrofocus designs should be acceptable. Really hope my SEM21 will be ok with minimal corrections. I've an awful suspicion that the sony is not going to be compatible with Leica wide angle lenses simply because, if they were, it would be all over the net. That not one person who has put their hands on the Sony has tried what every M user in the world is wondering i.e. 24 or wider, speaks volumes. Come on! Nobody had a 24mm handy? "I'm going to try the Sony FF. I'll take a couple of lenses along. Hey, how about my 50mm and a 135" Well, we'll all need to wait a little longer to know for sure. Pete Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stealth3kpl Posted October 19, 2013 Share #1137 Posted October 19, 2013 Check this out: http://www.ronscheffler.com/techtalk/?p=224 Perhaps things will be better with the A7R which has microlenses unlike the A7 Pete Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stealth3kpl Posted October 19, 2013 Share #1138 Posted October 19, 2013 Not so encouraging. Perhaps the A7R will be better? http://www.ronscheffler.com/techtalk/?p=224 Pete Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackk Posted October 19, 2013 Share #1139 Posted October 19, 2013 There have been lots of wringing of hands and shaking of heads in the last several days along the lines of Leica should have, could have but did not. Yes, I have ordered the new Sony A7R as I simply got fed up waiting for the M240 and am now not convinced that is what i want, and I look forward to using the Sony with my Leica lenses and the ‘appropriate’ adapter... Been reading about M cameras on this forum since year 2010. Guess I'm on the same boat as you Jedi. 3 years ago I attempted to get an M9, which was a pain to find one available. At the end I gave up, got an X100 instead to see if it can cure the rangefinder bug. It is the X100 that made me want an M camera again because of how slow it is in AF and the useless focus by wire. It is just not the same. I finally committed to an M purchase when B&H had the 50lux in stock. Ordered the 50lux + M two months ago, Aug 18th. Without carefully reading B&H policy, I made a mistake to order the M w/ the 50lux because they charged the credit card right away for any foreign orders. They advised me that orders from Sept 2012 were being filled when I spoke to them, Aug 24th 2013. They told me they had some 130+ orders waiting in line, which was sad for me to find out. I then cancelled the order and incurred a $300 loss from the exchange rate... very upset but I had not given up in looking for the M. Ordered the M, paid in full at the Lens & Shutter's Broadway location in Vancouver. It was Aug 29th. They told me it would be faster to receive the camera if it is paid in full. It should arrive in Dec 2013. Happily started my waiting count down. Yesterday I received a call from the new ownership of L&S, to find out that the store went bankrupt.... I now have to go through a claim process with my credit card company to claim the $7800 back. Thank god I paid for it by Visa. My mind shifted slightly when I saw the A7R specs and started to wonder if the M240 worth $7800 for what it has to offer. At the end I made up my mind to stick with the order as I really love how the M9 handles when I had a chance to use it in 2010. And I understand that it is the body designed for the M lenses (50lux in my case) to work their magic. But now, with the $300 loss from cancelling the B&H order, Lens & Shutter went bankrupt after many years in business... I started to wonder if I'm not meant to own a Leica M camera. Is this a test?!!? I hear Smigo's voice, "precious..." Ironically, this morning I found out Fuji released a new firmware for the X100 to improve it's manual focus, AF performance. Also added focus assist. I tested the new firmware. WOW is the only word I can say when this happened 2 years after I bought it. All of a sudden I don't feel like I need the M240 as badly with the improvement on the X100. Not IQ though. Now that I have a lonely 50lux sitting in the cabinet without an M body... should I put myself on another waiting list to get the M? or just wait 2 months to find out how well the 50lux will work on the A7R and get the A7R? I suspect even if I don't put my name on an A7R pre-order list, I will still be able to get one before getting an M if I put my name on an M waiting list as I'm typing this now... the name Leica is not making me feel good at this moment... $4800 spent so far... without a body to use the lens... sigh... to be or not to be... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted October 19, 2013 Share #1140 Posted October 19, 2013 It's not a question of Sony is going to make one lets make it, the customer base wants one. The demand from Leica lens owners is undeniable. If they were only interested in their niche, why make the X series or the C, or even rebranding the panasonics? p.s. don't answer the last question, they are interested in making money. I'm not sure that the demand from Leica owners IS undeniable. I think that most Leica owners want a rangefinder . . . not an EVF only camera - There are certainly a few vocal people around here who want it, and there are certainly many non Leica owners who want one. But a similar camera made in Germany would be nearly as expensive as an M. This was why my question was left so open. I would be very interested in the decision making process, did they just sit around a table and think 'forget it, we could never make it' or 'we will never leave the rangefinder off' etc. Well, making a new camera is one thing - leaving the rangefinder off an M is like leaving the engine out of a car - it's what M stands for. Actually, I'm not quite sure what the 'it' in 'forget it, we could never make it' - do you include AF? do you mean a camera just like the Sony? There are many cameras they could have made (and might have made, and might still make). Personally I can see lots of shortcomings in the A7 (wonderful thought it obviously is) - for example, with that big, high density sensor, in body image stabilisation would be extremely handy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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