ma9ical Posted July 6, 2013 Share #161 Posted July 6, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) So it makes a camera unreliable if the system has no aperture readout on the lens? Regular lockups from many users, including me, seem to indicate there is indeed a reliability issue. I lost some shots today just because of it. Regarding the aperture readout a couple of points: (1) If I am testing a lens yes it is important to have correct information, and (2) I have no idea why someone would want to have information that is incorrect most of the time (my experience so far). It's just noise. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 6, 2013 Posted July 6, 2013 Hi ma9ical, Take a look here Leica M Typ 240: Unreliable or Reliable - Survey. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
hoppyman Posted July 6, 2013 Share #162 Posted July 6, 2013 Reported lockups certainly may be legitimate parts of a reliability discussion. I think that you are missing the point that the accuracy of the aperture readout has nothing to do with reliability. There is no precise means of recording that information from M lenses because there is no interface, electrical nor mechanical, between the aperture ring and the camera body. That has been the case since 1954 of course. The M8, M9 and M (Typ 240) all produce an estimate based on a comparison of information from the brightness sensor (the tiny circular window on top plate front) to the recorded exposure values from the image sensor. That estimate varies in accuracy and Leica Camera made a decision to not use it as a precise value for operation with the M8 in its final design years ago. It has no function in any exposure processing within the camera. For example compensation in the raw information for vignetting does not vary with aperture used. It has a function for TTL flash which is generally a minor use of the cameras. Your raw processor reads the available EXIF and reports (or not) that estimated value which it may interpret as a more or less precise number. In my experience over maybe 20,000 frames with the M8 and forward Lightroom and Adobe Camera Raw generally reports a number within 1 to 1.5 stops of the actual aperture used. Useful but not definitive, nor can it be. I can't speak with any experience on any other raw processor. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted July 6, 2013 Share #163 Posted July 6, 2013 Further to Hoppy's remarks, which I endorse, C1 displays similar EXIF data which is, at best, an estimate of the used aperture. If a ND filter is used on the lens, then the EXIF readout of aperture is way off. I have never found it to have any affect on making correct exposures though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyalf Posted July 7, 2013 Share #164 Posted July 7, 2013 ... I think for these sorts of 'polls' to be truly helpful, one probably shouldn't ask them in a way that serves as a riposte to another person's opinion (i.e, the reviewer in question.) In the end it's more effective to share the specifics (e.g., "have you experienced any lockups and what were you doing at the time," etc..) And then let the owner/potential buyer decide for themselves about what constitutes 'reliability.' Otherwise the threads have the potential to turn into school yard arguments and often don't end up being very productive. First a big thank you to RickLeica for starting this thread. For me as a potential M owner this is very valuable information. For me "unreliable" would mean missing even a single shoot because the camera is not functioning as expected in some way. So I would have stated "have you missed any shoot due to the M not functioning as promised in some way". But then again I didn't start the poll so Im happy with reading the results . And RickLeica celarly stated "Feel free to fairly apply your own definition of reliable when you answer either Yes or No.". So it is possible to extract more information when reading answers. Sorry for somewhat polluting this thread. P.S. Who is keeping the count? It would be nice if the "no"s counted as they go along. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 7, 2013 Share #165 Posted July 7, 2013 Regular lockups from many users, including me, seem to indicate there is indeed a reliability issue. I lost some shots today just because of it. Regarding the aperture readout a couple of points: (1) If I am testing a lens yes it is important to have correct information, and (2) I have no idea why someone would want to have information that is incorrect most of the time (my experience so far). It's just noise. In that case you have the wrong camera. As Geoff explains it is impossible to have an accurate aperture readout on a camera with a manual aperture mechanism. As to testing, most owners use the camera for taking photographs. When testing you should use a pencil and notebook. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnbuckley Posted July 7, 2013 Share #166 Posted July 7, 2013 My M is the most reliable digital M I have owned. Does not lock up like my M8, M9, or Monochrom. The one bit of unreliabilty I have witnessed has been the LCD showing multiple images in a carousel after taking multiple pictures in a row; now that I have turned off the 3-second review, I have had no problems. Bottom line: I have owned a total of 4 digital Ms prior to the M-240, and the M-240 is the sturdiest, most dependable of the lot. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tanks Posted July 7, 2013 Share #167 Posted July 7, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) In that case you have the wrong camera. As Geoff explains it is impossible to have an accurate aperture readout on a camera with a manual aperture mechanism. As to testing, most owners use the camera for taking photographs. When testing you should use a pencil and notebook. It is really interesting that you got hung up on the minutiae of the aperture recording in telling him he has the wrong camera. He might have the wrong camera because as he said, camera has reliability issues for him: Regular lockups from many users, including me, seem to indicate there is indeed a reliability issue. I lost some shots today just because of it... Of course, tackling the real issues of camera reliability goes against the grain of cheerleading. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheshireCat Posted July 7, 2013 Share #168 Posted July 7, 2013 At this point, seems to me that a critical information is missing in this "survey": whether a user is often using an EVF or not, and which brand (Leica's EVF or Oly's VF-2). I believe that using tne EVF turns a barely reliable camera into an unreliable one. Would any voter please edit his/her post to add EVF usage and brand ? I consider any YES vote without EVF info a "YES because I am not using an EVF". P.S. I am using the word "survey" between quotes because it is ridiculous that this forum site has no proper tool to handle surveys. Then again, true Leica style Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted July 7, 2013 Author Share #169 Posted July 7, 2013 At this point, seems to me that a critical information is missing in this "survey": whether a user is often using an EVF or not, and which brand (Leica's EVF or Oly's VF-2). I believe that using tne EVF turns a barely reliable camera into an unreliable one. Would any voter please edit his/her post to add EVF usage and brand ? I consider any YES vote without EVF info a "YES because I am not using an EVF". P.S. I am using the word "survey" between quotes because it is ridiculous that this forum site has no proper tool to handle surveys. Then again, true Leica style Can I vote a second time then: Yes - No lock ups and No lockups with the EVF that is on the camera more than half the time. This is a rock solid camera. I wouldn't mind if all of the comments of disgust over the survey were moved to a separate thread like, Survey gripes by those of us that don't own the camera. This way the relevant discussion of the reliability could be more easily parsed out of all the BS. This good thread would read cleaner and more easily for those that are trying to gain knowledge rather than just provide an endless argumentative commentary on the survey architecture - which I set up to try and avoid all of the non-owners from commenting on the reliability of a camera they have NO first hand knowledge about, just useless writing to read themselves write. Thank you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdlaing Posted July 7, 2013 Share #170 Posted July 7, 2013 Can I vote a second time then: Yes - No lock ups and No lockups with the EVF that is on the camera more than half the time. This is a rock solid camera. I wouldn't mind if all of the comments of disgust over the survey were moved to a separate thread like, Survey gripes by those of us that don't own the camera. This way the relevant discussion of the reliability could be more easily parsed out of all the BS. This good thread would read cleaner and more easily for those that are trying to gain knowledge rather than just provide an endless argumentative commentary on the survey architecture - which I set up to try and avoid all of the non-owners from commenting on the reliability of a camera they have NO first hand knowledge about, just useless writing to read themselves write. Thank you. I have first hand knowledge. I dont have my M back yet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted July 7, 2013 Share #171 Posted July 7, 2013 At this point, seems to me that a critical information is missing in this "survey": whether a user is often using an EVF or not, and which brand (Leica's EVF or Oly's VF-2)... Feel free to open a new thread if need be, this one is about general reliability. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted July 7, 2013 Author Share #172 Posted July 7, 2013 I don't see why the moderators could not parse out the comments that pertain to the way they survey question was written, and just leave the "yes" "no" replies with their comments if, people felt the need to comment. Some of the "no" comments are good because they explain what is the issue. This thread has given more real insight to what is generally going on early in this camera release than any comments elsewhere (except the Color Survey:p). Some of the answers had to do with battery charging issues or other such things, but some have put us onto the lockups and the possible EVF issue (although I'm not sure where either of these may lead) but, they need separate threads to discuss, like we did with the memory cards and the M9 and the firmware updates. Please, moderators, this is a very good thread if you could move the comments that don't pertain to the question. This could be a great place for actual owners to post their real experiences and use their own judgement as to how they define reliable - which I'm very OK with, I can read their idea of what is bugging them and decide on my own if, I think it is relevant to me. I don't care if they vote "no." And, by the same token, others shouldn't care if some vote "yes," "only a few lockups." Thanks again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted July 7, 2013 Author Share #173 Posted July 7, 2013 I have first hand knowledge.I dont have my M back yet. Please, feel welcome to vote. I understand that you have shot over 2,000 frames. I'm not sure exactly what you do, but I know that your work involves using the M. You are exactly who I hoped would vote. If, you want to comment on the fact that yours is back for lug repair, but you want to comment on what you observed so far, that is great. I guess I'm opening this up (happened already) to comments from all voters, so go ahead and add to the body of knowledge of real users. Rick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheshireCat Posted July 7, 2013 Share #174 Posted July 7, 2013 I wouldn't mind if all of the comments of disgust over the survey were moved to a separate thread like, Survey gripes by those of us that don't own the camera. This way the relevant discussion of the reliability could be more easily parsed out of all the BS. This good thread would read cleaner and more easily for those that are trying to gain knowledge rather than just provide an endless argumentative commentary on the survey architecture - which I set up to try and avoid all of the non-owners from commenting on the reliability of a camera they have NO first hand knowledge about, just useless writing to read themselves write. Thank you. Your arrogance won't make this thread any better. Would you please remind all of us how many YES and NO are exactly in this "survey" ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thighslapper Posted July 7, 2013 Share #175 Posted July 7, 2013 Your arrogance won't make this thread any better.Would you please remind all of us how many YES and NO are exactly in this "survey" ? A less grumpy person would be bothered to read a few posts back and find out himself ..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheshireCat Posted July 7, 2013 Share #176 Posted July 7, 2013 A less grumpy person would be bothered to read a few posts back and find out himself ..... Which I did of course, but the count is wrong especially for NO. I will open another thread about proper survey handling. I won't pollute this one anymore, so Rick can count votes quickier Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted July 7, 2013 Share #177 Posted July 7, 2013 Thank you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hey You Posted July 7, 2013 Share #178 Posted July 7, 2013 "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." There are three types of people: those who can count, and those who cannot. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdlaing Posted July 7, 2013 Share #179 Posted July 7, 2013 Please, feel welcome to vote. I understand that you have shot over 2,000 frames. I'm not sure exactly what you do, but I know that your work involves using the M. You are exactly who I hoped would vote. If, you want to comment on the fact that yours is back for lug repair, but you want to comment on what you observed so far, that is great. I guess I'm opening this up (happened already) to comments from all voters, so go ahead and add to the body of knowledge of real users. Rick I vote YES. The only trouble I had I caused myself. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thighslapper Posted July 7, 2013 Share #180 Posted July 7, 2013 Yet again with Leica there seems to be such a lack of consistency that drawing any conclusions is very difficult........ Some people have lock ups .... some a few ... some a lot ...... but some people don't Camera start up/standby times vary a lot ....... and not all are explicable with card use.... Some people have EVF problems ...... but most don't...... Some have the rolling carousel of review images occasionally but most don't ..... A few have had complete sudden death...... Some have had battery charging/capacity issues..... A few have rangefinder calibration problems The odd one has viewfinder LED errors.... Most.... but not all think WB is off. Some think the basic colour balance is wrong.... No consistent theme at all..... Looks like producing M240's is a bit like breeding racehorses ...... some are winners..... a lot just provide amusement for the owners .... and some find their way into lasagne.... Mr C.Cat is right in many ways ....... we need to define reliability and then subdivide the unreliability into sensible categories....... Unfortunately the low number of cameras about makes it all a bit difficult ...... and it is well known that the first batches of a product always contain a disproportionate number of duds anyway....... If you define reliability as being able to go out every day and be certain that you will record the images you want...... then my camera has been reliable..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.