diglloyd: "Leica M Typ240: Unreliable"

[barjohn]

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Sully,

 

As an engineer, I leave my computers on 24/7; however, I don't my cameras. The reason many engineers leave their computers on is that solid state electronics are based on crystalline structures and crystal latices are temperature sensitive. Keeping a stable temperature, rather than a fluctuating temperature helps reliability and longevity. However, battery operated devices are designed to operate at lower temperatures and use less power so on must make a trade-off between reliability and power use. When you change batteries you power cycle the device so there is no way to avoid turning the device off and on as there is with a computer plugged into the wall and on a UPS.

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[ericborgstrom]

I would prefer assessments by more reliable reviewers.

 

Would camera lockup and loss of video signal be reviewer dependent? Could it be that some of the excellent earlier reviewers used not finalised firmware and disregarded some stability issues. diglloyd seems to have had problems acquiring a camera (like most of us because of undisclosed production issues ) but has now released extensive testing of the camera.

 

And Reid Reviews, Jonatan Slack, Tim Ashley, Erwin Puts, Torsten Overgaard, and even Steve Huff has all published interesting and in many respects thorough reviews but not much about M240 unreliability.

[Guest borge]

I received my first M240 (3-1-13) It worked perfectly for stills and video. I had to send it back for lug replacement on (5-24-13) when I got my second camera. The second camera worked flawlessly for stills and video. First camera comes back (6-24-13) and is also working perfectly. Both cameras have never locked up. Why?

 

I think the M240 is a computer attached to a video camera, so, it should be treated like a video camera which means ... "Don't keep turning it off and on." All the video engineers and computer experts I work with tell me, "Just turn them (video cameras and editing computers) on, and don't turn them off unless you absolutely have to." Many post production facilities never turn off their equipment. In the field we obviously have to turn video cameras off more often (lunch break or long boring plane flights). But during a normal work day we try to leave the cameras powered up. For some electrical quantum physics reason that I don't understand, it is better to just let the cameras stay powered.

 

On jobs with the M240s I leave them on all the time and just keep feeding them batteries (which now are in good supply). After a while the cameras go to "sleep", but they "wake up" quickly when the shutter button is touched.

 

Whether this procedure is just luck or wise use of electrical machines, is anybody's guess. But so far, so good.

 

Ciao, Sully

 

I get what you're saying but what you're saying is not right. The reason (waaay back in the days, by the way) people recommended not to turn off computers was due to the risk of software problems during reboots - not hardware problems.

 

This was in the ancient days of 16-bit operating systems (MS-DOS, Windows 3.1, 95, 98, ME) by the way. On any modern computer or electrical equipment today this is not valid. If the product can't be shut down due to the fear of failure upon restart the product is of BAD QUALITY - wether it is the software or the hardware.

 

Having worked as an engineer within datacenters, networks and among the worlds biggest IT infrastructures I would never ever tolerate a system that doesn't handle having it's plug pulled. Even though it should never happen, it will happen one day, and that day it should handle it. If not it's simply not of good enough quality.

 

The M240 is not more of a computer than any other digital camera in history. There is no excuse for it to be unstable. The only reason behind unstable devices is either 1) Poor hardware designs/cheap components/bad engineering or 2) Poor software (firmware) quality/design/implementation or 3) A combination between 1 and 2 where you have to make bad decisions in software (workarounds) to compensate for bad hardware design/components.

[digitalfx]

Uh, did you even bother to read the article before posting this?

 

I read this:

diglloyd blog - Leica M Typ 240: Unreliable

 

Is there more to it that what I see here or am I missing something?

EDIT: It seems like maybe there is more to his review that I can't access? Is this a subscription? I can only view a one page review.

 

FYI- I own a M and have been using it extensively for over 90 days, have shot thousands of images and videos. I have experienced the issues he describes, but if I was to review the camera after 90 days of extensive use...my review would be very different. This review indicates to me the reviewer spent very limited time with the camera and had a bad experience. To write a proper review you need to spend more than 12 hours with a camera.

 

I find the camera totally reliable, with some occasional glitches, which have never caused me to miss more than a few seconds of shooting. I expect a new FW will address these issues as they have with the previous M9 and M8, which had similar issues at launch.

[digitalfx]

Regarding powering the camera on/off...it is designed to be left on while shooting. I leave mine on all day. The camera powers itself off after 2 minutes (adjustable in menu) so this method has no impact on battery life.

 

This means the camera is always available to shoot. As you begin to draw the camera up to your eye, you simply touch the shutter and wake her up. By the time you are ready to push the shutter release the camera is ready to fire away.

 

This is how the M's have been designed. If you turned the power on/off all day long you will not have a good experience. Get in the habit of turning on your M when you remove it from the bag and simply leave it on till you are finished...you will enjoy your M experience much more.

[Karl G]

Other irritating factors which are a direct result of marginal design thinking:

 

Turning the camera off loses the “last menu” memory, such as the horizon feature. This and other behaviors make it the most “chimpy” camera I have used in a long time—lots of make-work button pressing.

There should be an option to leave the horizon lines on if desired, a FW update. I might use that but largely don't miss it. Having the camera stuck on whatever my last Menu item was on power up would be really, really annoying. THAT would be marginal thinking.

 

The EVF option is good to have, but resolution and handling of bright lighting make me wonder why a Sony NEX-7 EVF is so much better at 1/7 the price, and built-in too.

EVF's suffer from high contrast bright environments and wash out. Having only an EVF with no optical RF would be extremely limiting to me. The NEX is an APSC. This is apples to oranges.

 

The zoomed-in Live View focusing is very helpful under most conditions, but certainty on focus turns out to be difficult with many real subjects: the focus peaking feature does not operate on uniformly colored areas, such as the orange-red wood of bristlecone pines. If the lighting is flat, it becomes hard to be sure of focus.s

Hard to see red focus peaking on a red background, yep. Doesn't work in low contrast, yep. It's not perfect for all situations but you have an excellent optical focusing for use. AF lenses have trouble in the same situations. Nature of the beast, and like complaining your flat head screwdriver doesn't work on Phillip's head screws.

 

The electronic rangefinder frame lines are easy to see, but it was a shock to find that they show up only if the camera is turned on.

A shock? This was known feature from introduction and is in the manual. I generally didn't spend a lot of time looking through the viewfinder on a ME except when I wanted to take pictures, with the camera on. Sometimes I would look through the viewfinder on the ME, frame and realize it wasn't on. Daftness comes in many flavors, shapes and sizes and it really wasn't the camera's marginal design that caused me to do this rarely.

And turning on the camera is not instant, and sucks power if one normally has the EVF engaged. On the M9, the frame lines are always there, on or off, which is the Right Way to do it.

Power on is always too slow on all camera's but it is in line with other FF cameras including pro body Nikons. Battery life is really quite decent even with extensive use of EVF. Not using EVF, power life is excellent compared to the M9. I guess if staring through the viewfinder with the power off is a crucial design feature, than that would be the, "Right Way to do it". A lot of us don't care about the frame lines unless we are taking pictures.

 

The array of buttons to the left of the LCD are the same size and shape (and too small). Try working this array arrangement in the dark— there are no tactile clues other than braille-like finger counting.

They are essentially about the same size as the M9 and there is one extra. The M9 doesn't have lit buttons either. Only a few cameras have lit buttons (like the D4) and there are many more than 6.

 

The Live View zoom button is badly placed (quite awkward to reach), one can only focus in the center, and lightly pressing the shutter pops out of zoom mode (making it tough to make certain types of closer range images).

You can use zoom with the control wheel which is quick and easy. Using the front button to set exposure comp was a bit fiddly with the recessed button, but just a learning curve. When the camera pops out of zoom with a light press on the shutter it is for composing after fine focusing with focus aid in the EVF. It is a natural work flow just before full shutter release. It was almost as if Leica used and thought about this when designing the camera controls. Or got input from photographers using prototypes to take many.many pictures in testing. In fact, maybe they did.

 

The brand new camera arrived with a rangefinder whose calibration was off for the brand-new 50/2 APO ASPH, so my only option for accurate focus was the EVF. It took some effort, but my older M9 has been spot-on with its rangefinder for all my M glass (though it suffered similar issues for a while). Apparently I will have to suffer through the same hassle with the M Typ 240.

I haven't tried the new 50/2 but all my other lens are spot on. Some RF and some lenses need recalibration. This has been an issue for some time with a mechanical/optical mechanism and lenses. I'm sure Lecia will continue to work on QI and production as this will be consistent with their mission.

 

Lenses frequently would not click into the mount (no audible click); I had to loosen and re-attempt lens mounting at least 30 times during my trip. Possibly this is related to rangefinder operation.

This has happened with film Leicas, my ME, and once or twice with the M(240) usually when I am hurrying to change a lens out. It is rare and probably technique oriented for me. It this is happening 30 times or more, it should be pretty reproducible and would indicate a repair, IMO.

 

 

 

My 240 is working fine and I find it highly usable camera as it is. FW updates may make it better which seems to be the natural progression for electronic products. SO far it has been mostly just smiles and files.

[gpwhite]

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And the locking mechanism being stiff (which of course it shouldn't be) indicating something to do with "rangefinder operation":confused: does not really inspire confidence in his judgement.

 

I would prefer assessments by more reliable reviewers.

 

Jaap, I completely disagree with your characterizations of Lloyd Chambers' reliability. Indeed, I would be interested to read your examples of reviewers whom you find more objective and more reliable. Please show them to us on the forum.

 

I am aware of Lloyd's earlier complimentary reviews with a borrowed M240, which posters on this thread (including you) apparently chose to ignore, and I understand his total frustration with receiving a lemon M240 as his own copy after a great deal of effort to secure one... it is brand new and came right from my dealer (who delivered a perfect example to me, setting aside the strap lug warning that I have ignored).

 

It is really too bad that random chance delivered a substantially out-of-spec M240 to Lloyd, and so readers are all deprived of his uniquely precise and reliable comparisons... at least until Leica repairs his new M.

 

It seems entirely logical to me that the mis-alignment of an M lens in the circle of the body lens flange will distort how the exact position (hence angle) of the lens' focus cam meets the body rangefinder wheel, and, therefore, that focus precision would be upset. His complaints really refer to comparisons that relate precision of recorded focus vs. rangefinder focus point using the Noctilux and 50 AA wide open... do you really find clear evidence somewhere that a sloppy M lens mount on the body will not result in this sort of problem?

 

Anyway, to trash an accomplished professional's work as unreliable without having even considered the whole of their work, or to be unwilling to accept that Leica ships out woefully messed up (and very expensive) copies, is really not worth posting, is it? Along these lines, when you posted your 24 SX aperture salad,

 

I thought shame on Leica.... not that Jaap was using his lens unreliably.

 

I urge forum members to take the time to read through Lloyd's work. Some of it you will appreciate and some of it you will discard. But you will certainly learn from it and come to appreciate how reliable his publications are. Oh, but be careful.... the many parts where he demonstrates why he finds many Leica products to be unmatched in quality and photographic performance, well, apparently those comments are unreliable!

 

Peter

[digitalfx]

is this review a subscription?

[mjh]

the merit of led or mechanical frame lines is another issue

The frame lines are still mechanical. There are no “electronic rangefinder frame lines” as Lloyd Chambers suggests.

 

As a matter of fact I’ve come to like the frame lines to be visible only when the camera is turned on. This prevents me from pointlessly pressing the shutter with the camera turned off.

[gpwhite]

is this review a subscription?

 

diglloyd.com can be accessed for free for its blog posts. Lloyd posted how unhappy he was with receiving an M240 lemon (new, out of the box) so he could not perform the tests he promised readers until his body is brought to spec. If you read his review of the M240 from earlier this year (completed with a loaned copy), you will see his strong approval of the camera.... so I am not sure which is unreliable = the good or the bad comments-- maybe both?

 

The real meat in diglloyd.com is a subscription site. I loathed paying the $39, or whatever it is, but found over hours and hours and hours of reading that it is the Leica of photo review sites. For the price of an SD card, you have access to a huge volume of history (R lenses tested on a D800E!) and uniquely precise comparisons.

 

I have no affiliation with Lloyd... I pay full price! But, just as I correspond with pros on this site such as Thorsten, Jono and Tim Ashley in order to learn more about their views, I have exchanged quite a bit of back and forth with Lloyd.

[-Lss-]

As a matter of fact I’ve come to like the frame lines to be visible only when the camera is turned on. This prevents me from pointlessly pressing the shutter with the camera turned off.

Agreed. And I have never even used my cameras with the lens cap on.

[digitalfx]

The real meat in diglloyd.com is a subscription site. I loathed paying the $39, or whatever it is, but found over hours and hours and hours of reading that it is the Leica of photo review sites. For the price of an SD card, you have access to a huge volume of history (R lenses tested on a D800E!) and uniquely precise comparisons.

 

 

They only review I see is a one page summary of his bad experiences. My interpretation after reading this is that the reviewer spent 12 hours with a bad camera and was not happy. I could be wrong, but the review is too short to read more into it...it surely doesn't represent my experience with the camera after 3 1/2 months of shooting...but this is just my opinion. YMMV

[CheshireCat]

Lloyd has carefully analyzed and reviewed lots of cameras and has always expressed his critical opinion on any of them, regardless of brand and model, and for free in his blog (actual reviews require subscription).

His opinion is of course subjective, and one may disagree, but he surely has the knowledge to compare products and clearly point out what's wrong or not actually state of the art, especially in relation to the price.

 

In this regard, he is much more competent and reliable than most of us.

 

Hope Leica is listening to his feedback, instead of bashing him as many fanboys love to do in this web site, clueless and unaware that any constructive critic is increasing the chance they will love their next Leica camera and lenses so much better.

[Stealth3kpl]

I've just thought of a use for the Red Dot. Turn it into a circuit breaker with one of the battery leads going to it. When the digital Leicas freeze, push the red dot. Can anyone lend me a Dremel? (and a red dot for my M9-P)?

Pete

[Tonki-M]

It feels like a review that was written after he spent 30 minutes with the camera and it locked up on him.

 

His points are all valid, but you need to spend more than 30 minutes with a camera if you are going to write reviews that are worthwhile. This review is fairly worthless.

 

but to be fair, there's a difference between talking about image quality w/o first getting to know how camera behaves AND it breaking down in the first 30 mins of use. You dont need many hours to say that breaking down is a bad thing.

 

While some may not have problems with locking up, a whole lot of others had experienced it. few M240s in Thailand has already been sent for repair from permanent lockup(not fixed from resetting the camera). And it is the ones that break down that should be heard as it is an issue. There's no need to praise ones that have not encountered the problem SINCE it is supposed to be that way!

[digitalfx]

but to be fair, there's a difference between talking about image quality w/o first getting to know how camera behaves AND it breaking down in the first 30 mins of use. You dont need many hours to say that breaking down is a bad thing.

 

While some may not have problems with locking up, a whole lot of others had experienced it. few M240s in Thailand has already been sent for repair from permanent lockup(not fixed from resetting the camera). And it is the ones that break down that should be heard as it is an issue. There's no need to praise ones that have not encountered the problem SINCE it is supposed to be that way!

 

I have experienced the problem as well, its a bug no doubt about it. It will hopefully be addressed in a FW update sooner rather than later. My only point is that it hasn't been a major inconvenience to me. Yes its a PITA when it occurs...but in the thousands of images I have shot, its only occurred a handful of times and a quick power off solved it most times, maybe 2 or three times I had to pull the battery. In either case it was 5-10 seconds of downtime. I do agree this needs to be addressed immediately...but it hasn't prevented me from enjoying the camera. IMO its the best Digital Leica to date, Ive owned the M8, upgraded it to the M9 and now the M and I find the M to be a major upgrade over the M9 which still has problems. I had the same types of issues with both the predecessors when the first released and both were addressed in FW updates. I never said it was "supposed to be that way"

[k-hawinkler]

Ah, I get it, all part of the Leica mystique!

[nelly]

I hope my Leica M9 which is just out of warranty and back from a service from Leica NJ keeps working for a good while as this will be my last Leica digital camera body.

Just not impressed with Leica's recent offerings. I will of course hold on to all my Leica glass.

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[vanhulsenbeek]

but to be fair, there's a difference between talking about image quality w/o first getting to know how camera behaves AND it breaking down in the first 30 mins of use. You dont need many hours to say that breaking down is a bad thing.

 

While some may not have problems with locking up, a whole lot of others had experienced it. few M240s in Thailand has already been sent for repair from permanent lockup(not fixed from resetting the camera). And it is the ones that break down that should be heard as it is an issue. There's no need to praise ones that have not encountered the problem SINCE it is supposed to be that way!

 

Agreed. And why can't we just concede that such an expensive camera refusing to function after 30 minutes of use is an awful thing to happen to anyone? Worthy of some grumbling at least.

 

Or is a Leica camera that holy that any sins are absolved pre facto?

[gpwhite]

They only review I see is a one page summary of his bad experiences. My interpretation after reading this is that the reviewer spent 12 hours with a bad camera and was not happy. I could be wrong, but the review is too short to read more into it...it surely doesn't represent my experience with the camera after 3 1/2 months of shooting...but this is just my opinion. YMMV

 

Digitalfx, to see all of diglloyd's reports about the M240, you need to click through on one of the highlighted links on the blog page. You will be prompted to buy a subscription if you go further into the Leica library of information.

 

I believe that your comment "the reviewer spent 12 hours with a bad camera and was not happy" is exactly the point Lloyd was making. First of all, he had probably shot a couple of thousand exposures with a dozen lenses on another M240 copy. Then, when he paid the same $7,000 that we all have, his own M240 turned out to be a lemon. What we could read into the post is that Leica QC remains more variable than anyone would hope for. So it is the camera production that is unreliable, not the reviewer as some posts on our forum suggested.