Mini M? [MERGED] AKA X-Vario

[wda]

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I think that I am just content to wait and see.

[pico]

It will not be any thing smaller than full frame.

[filzer]

No matter what it will be - i bet it's designed by jony ive. He is the king of miniaturization!

[erlingmm]

Apple's chief designer Jonathan Ive supposed to design a Leica camera - Apple developers conference starts in SF June 10th - launch of "mini M" June 11th - is there a connection here, that can lead to something ENTIRELY different?

[pico]

No matter what it will be - i bet it's designed by jony ive. He is the king of miniaturization!

 

Could be BUT the announcement was that Jon will make only one and it will be auctioned. Would Leica lie to us?

[hermanp]

Apple's chief designer Jonathan Ive supposed to design a Leica camera - Apple developers conference starts in SF June 10th - launch of "mini M" June 11th - is there a connection here, that can lead to something ENTIRELY different?

 

iM?

[MarkP]

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Colonel made a good point earlier regarding Leica having a USP, and not trying to copy /emulate what other manufacturers are doing. Can other people see any mileage in a MINI MONOCHROME . Make it full frame with a prime 35 f2 fixed or similar with a quality optical viewfinder, full exposure control obviously and black and white video. Definitely unique, proven market for Monochrome, not trying to steal market share from anyone else, as nobody else is doing it. It's a MONO Sony RX 1 . I have to say I'd buy one, it's the modern equivalent of the cameras like the Contax T3 . Pocketable, amazing quality. If its not that then I'm saying there's a market for such a thing. You could argue that you could use the B and W mode on the Sony RX1 , but Leica created an advantage over doing the same thing on the M 9 etc, and I think it's a possibility here too.

 

Nice idea. The Contax T3 is the only of my cameras I regret having sold.

[dante]

Below is the formula Fuji used, and I bet its in the cards for any interchangeable lens camera Leica would make.

 

1. Traditional M-sized body with a DX sensor actually set in the front 40% of the depth. This gives a very short flange distance.

 

2. Native AF lenses that cover the native format and set very close to the imager. This keeps things compact. The "fat" aspect ratio of the M8/9/240 (and "fatter" profile of SLRs) is a function of maintaining longer back-focus distances.

 

3. Adaptation of other lenses, here M, via a cylindrical adapter (I presume that it would contain electronics to read 6-bit codes).

 

There won't be any mechanical linkages for focusing (nor any needed) because a phase detect sensor can similate the RF field in an EVF.

 

I'd wager there will not be a built-in glass VF (or a hybrid, which I'm sure Fuji has patented) but then again, it doesn't sound like many people will expect one. The M-series glass VF/RF costs about $800. It's also relatively fragile, labor-intensive to align, and combining it with a digital sensor means a lot of recalibration for pre-digital M lenses. With an electronic finder, that a lens back focuses becomes essentially irrelevant.

 

Dante

[Lee Martin]

Nice idea. The Contax T3 is the only of my cameras I regret having sold.

 

I'm watching a couple on EBay, but they are getting more and more difficult to find in mint condition for obvious reasons. A brand new black version that a collector was selling just sold or over £600 . I'm convinced if somebody made them again under licence of some sort they would sell by the lorry load

[IkarusJohn]

Interesting discussion.

 

We've been over this at least a couple of times in depth, and I see no reason to revise my original view - I was completely wrong previously, so why change a reliable formula?

 

- full frame - it's the only game in town for Leica. The cropped sensor scene is too crowded

 

- interchangeable M mount - a fixed lens is just too expensive, and an M mount drives lens sales

 

- stripped back with no rangefinder, and optional add-ones like EVF etc

 

- small

 

- AF capability so that future AF lenses and zooms can be used. Leica already makes AF lenses for the S, and both the M(240) and the mini will take a wider range of lenses than the M9/Monochrom/M-E range

 

The thing is that this has to fill or create a market demand. I always liked the idea of Steve Jobs saying that Apple didn't respond to market demand, it set demand by producing products the market didn't know it wanted.

 

Obviously, Leica isn't in that mold, but it does need to avoid chasing its competitors, like its SLR experience.

 

This is different, though, as it has the technology. I suspect what we will see is a repackaging of what it has.

 

The CMOSIS sensor and M mount, without the focus coupling, and with the LCD from the M(240) a repackaged.

 

 

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[luigi bertolotti]

Good considerations, John and Dante : from another perspective, I'd say :

 

1) If it is no FF, they MUST introduce a new breed of lenses : current M lens line is too costly for a camera that ought to be priced well below the M. The cacpability to mount M (and R ?) lenses is just a plus for the current customers' base.

2) By converse, if it is FF, with EVF only, current lenses are RATHER OK, but they could expand the line with M mount with a new breed of lenses, in case with NO RF coupling, targeted to this new line of camera(s) and (maybe) with a less "luxury" price structure.

[otto.f]

I think it will be an interchangeable M mount crop-sensor camera without the rangefinder mechanism.

 

That has to be an electronic viewfinder then, a construction like the sony 57?

[satureyes]

Full frame, fixed 35mm F2 , optical viewfinder, with video facility . Beautifully engineered and well screwed together. As compact as the Sony RX1 but with a red dot. $4000/£2500 ish, queuing round the block. Yes please

 

I'm going with this.

New users won't spend 1500 plus on a M lens.

 

If they launch a RF less 240 then I'd be cancelling my 240 order because I don't care that much about the RF aspect.

[krooj]

I'm going with this.

New users won't spend 1500 plus on a M lens.

 

If they launch a RF less 240 then I'd be cancelling my 240 order because I don't care that much about the RF aspect.

 

Why not just use a NEX, then?

[-ph-]

Why not just use a NEX, then?

 

Because there is no FF NEX and even the APS-C ones seem to struggle at the corners with M lenses, if I remember the user reports correctly.

 

Peter

[Ledfut]

Because there is no FF NEX and even the APS-C ones seem to struggle at the corners with M lenses, if I remember the user reports correctly.

 

Peter

 

I find it hard to believe a FF e-mount is coming with all that Alpha stuff Sony has sitting around and the cropped nex lenses just starting to become useful or interesting. But a full frame interchangable lens Panasonic with a lecia brother seems more likely considering the rumors coming from both camps.

 

 

Ledfut

[pico]

Do any of you futurists, wannabe designers and marketers believe Leica is not reading this thread with a sense of profound fremdschämen?

 

God save us from LUF.

 

.

[robert_parker]

It all looks rather exciting - and also there is a real sense of relief if they are actually going to try to take back the market share that they've lost to Fuji and Olympus

[CaptZoom]

WTF!?! I'm not even in the market for a new camera and I can't help but obsess over this new camera Leica's releasing! I wasn't (and still am not) excited in the least bit about the M240 since I'm very happy with my 3 years old M9, but this new camera's got me sideways! And I don't even frakking what it's going to be!

 

Well played, Leica.

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[AlanG]

I was thinking they could revisit the idea of a twin lens reflex as that would have no competition in the marketplace.

 

Today I was in a store and out of curiosity I picked up a a Sony A77 and was pretty impressed by the EVF and focusing speed. (Yes SLT technology but soon similar speed may be available from better PD on the sensor methods.) I then picked up the Canon Rebel that was next to it and the viewfinder was dreadful. The cheaper Sony A65 had a nice viewfinder too. How anyone could buy the Rebel if they did a similar comparison is beyond me. I liked the EVF more than the optical view through a nearby Fuji X10.

 

So when you consider that Oly has a new and better EVF and Sony is also expected to have one out soon, I can't see how any company can ignore the advantage of going this route. I also can't see how Leica could make a full frame model and call it a "Mini" so my guess is it will be APS with EVF and AF.

 

Yes there is competition in that market but that is also the sweet spot for the balance between size, performance, price, image quality, and features. Thus the largest potential market moving forward if they wish to grow the company. I can see them making AF lenses for this and keeping the M manual focus. Last week I bought a $1200 dishwasher when I would have been served adequately by a $400 one. So price is not the only factor at play.

 

I don't see how Leica has improved their technology in the past year to make a full frame M that is significantly smaller than the M240. And don't see why they would do so this soon even if they could since it would compete with the M. Perhaps an EVF only model as some have speculated, that would be easy for them, but why would that be a "Mini?"