Mini M? [MERGED] AKA X-Vario

[CaptZoom]

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No ... I did not state the 14-150mm is f2.8 or FF ... one of the 4/3 format 14-50mm lenses mentioned is f2.8-3.5 (Leica OEM lens for the Digilux 3) ; the other is 14-50mm f3.5-5.6. The 14-150mm ASPH MEGA OIS lens is f3.5-5.6 ... each of the lenses is 4/3 format. One London dealer is currently listing a secondhand 4/3 format Leica D Vario-Elmar 14-150mm (FF equivalent 28-300mm) - they're quite sought after....

 

Thank you for clarifying. For some reason I thought you were referring to R lenses!?!

 

I owned the Digilux-3 (it remains my only regret in selling gear). The kit lens was/is fantastic (though I often found it too sharp for portraits).

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[dkCambridgeshire]

I think you are missing the point entirely. The cell phone camera is surprisingly good and at 8MP serves many useful purposes. The extra DOF on close-up shots by using such a short lens may be an advantage too. Somehow this tiny cheap lens has excellent resolving power and the image processing, white balance, exposure, etc. is surprisingly good. My point being, getting good photos with all kinds of "cameras" is pretty easy today.

 

I'm sure the X Vario can produce nice large prints.The idea that many people will buy an X Vario primarily to get the best 20x16 prints possible does not seem very likely to me. If that is their main concern why wouldn't they use something better? However it will serve that purpose for a few no doubt.

 

You miss the point too. More than a few Leica users and Leica Forum members participate in exhibitions and competitions at camera club and international exhibition level and they very likely do require cameras capable of producing better images than those made by camera phones. Camera phones can produce good images but nowhere near the quality of eg an APS-C or FF digital camera. Significant numbers of Leica Forum members have FF and APS DSLRs adapted to use Leica R lenses - because they seek the best image quality. Forum members also use eg the Leica DMR because of its capability of producing image files that can make the most exquisite prints - for both exhibition and professional use. And all the indications at present are that the X Vario can also produce superb image files too - far better than any camera phone. And you need to differentiate between a 'good' image and a truly excellent 'exquisite' image. I hope one of our professional Leica DMR users adds his 2c worth to this argument.

 

dunk

[dkCambridgeshire]

Bingo. So by definition, other manufacturers can produce "Leica quality" if Leica puts the Leica name on it.

 

Leica did not just 'put' their name 'on it' . They also designed the lens and specified production QA parameters. At the time Leica were participating in the 4/3 partnership with Olympus and Panasonic and all three manufacturers used the same basic camera chassis for their first 4/3 cameras - but each were very different cameras. And Leica and Panasonic both used Leica designed 4/3 zoom and prime lenses for their cameras.

 

We are getting a bit off topic here. The original assertion was that Leica did not and could not make AF zoom lenses but they have in fact been designing and making quality zooms for many years. And they also still make the WATE which is also a zoom design and which has never been matched by eg Zeiss.

 

dunk

[wlaidlaw]

The whole process of making these XV lenses will be totally different to the process used to make the M lenses. The M lens process is the opposite of mass production. Each barrel and the metal components are individually made and checked with lasers and templates for exactly correct dimensions. Each lens element is made individually and checked, the whole thing is then hand assembled with multiple checks en route and then individually checked and hand adjusted at the end. Even the numbers are hand painted onto the barrels. A trip round Solms is a real eye-opener. The machine that grinds the aspherical elements is mechanical ballet.

 

Whether the M lenses are any better for this essentially cottage industry process, I question. In my personal experience I have had more problems with new Leica M lenses than I have with the Zeiss ZM lenses, which are made on a more industrialised production line.

 

Wilson

[Guest malland]

...Whether the M lenses are any better for this essentially cottage industry process, I question. In my personal experience I have had more problems with new Leica M lenses than I have with the Zeiss ZM lenses, which are made on a more industrialised production line...

The "Made in Germany" syndrome is an expensive game, with Leica highlighting "hand crafting" so prominently in its publicity and advertising. A good analogy of this type of production can be found in a seminal book on the world automotive industry, The Machine that Changed the World, published in 1990 and based on a five-year MIT study in fourteen countries. The book compared Japanese "lean production" technology to that of other producers. At one point, it describes production at one German manufacturer (Mercedes-Benz), which had 25% defective cars coming off the assembly line. At the end of the line, there was a large team of craftsman filing and reworking parts to achieve the superb MB quality -- at the cost of an MB! Hand production is not necessarily better, but it is a lot more expensive.

 

With modern batch-based automated production very high quality can be achieved, at much lower cost, particularly for camera bodies; but this would have to be in countries like China or Thailand, where many Japanese companies produce high quality camera bodies — not "Leica quality" perhaps, but that is also possibly at higher cost, which would still be a fraction of the cost of the current "Made in Germany" production process. One marketing issue that would have to be faced is that a large portion of traditional Leica buyers believe so strongly in the currently mythical aspects of the Made in Germany label; and new buyers in Asia, particularly in China and Taiwan, believe in this even more strongly.

 

—Mitch/Bangkok

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Eggleston said that he was "at war with the obvious"...

[AlanG]

I remember hearing a Hyundai exec explaining how a new plant could have so many steps automated. It came down to the the more accurately each part was made the easier it was to assemble it.

[Guest badbob]

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With modern batch-based automated production very high quality can be achieved, at much lower cost, particularly for camera bodies; but this would have to be in countries like China or Thailand, where many Japanese companies produce high quality camera bodies — not "Leica quality" perhaps, but that is also possibly at higher cost, which would still be a fraction of the cost of the current "Made in Germany" production process. One marketing issue that would have to be faced is that a large portion of traditional Leica buyers believe so strongly in the currently mythical aspects of the Made in Germany label; and new buyers in Asia, particularly in China and Taiwan, believe in this even more strongly.

 

Ever since getting acquainted with the X Vario, I wondered how Leica managed to get so much into a package that's much closer in "feel" and build to the M9 than the X2. Yet the price is only 40 percent above the X2 and more than 400 percent different from a M9 with vario lens. Could it be that Leica has built a somewhat more automated facility for the X Vario than it used for the M9? Or perhaps modified the (more efficient?) facility that produces the X2 to also handle the X Vario?

[onceuponatime]

several very fine autofocus 4/3 lenses ... Google 'Leica AF four thirds zoom lens reviews' and check out the 14-50mm and 14-150mm types ... there are two of the former one of which has an f2.8 max aperture ... and one of the latter.

 

Made by Panasonic.

[dkCambridgeshire]

Made by Panasonic.

 

Designed by Leica; made by Panasonic for Leica and also Panasonic ... and made to Leica's QA spec.

 

dunk

[earleygallery]

Designed by Leica; made by Panasonic for Leica and also Panasonic ... and made to Leica's QA spec.

 

dunk

 

Actually I think that's more like 'Designed in partnership with Leica, made by Panasonic, sold by Panasonic' - you will note that the lenses cannot be found anywhere on the Leica website, but are listed on Panasonic's website.

[jaapv]

I wonder if anybody ever handled these lenses? I have the Vario-Elmarit 14-50 / 2.8-3.5 asph

The lens has a filter size of 72, a diameter of over 8 cm and is nearly 12 cm long fully extended. And that is for 4/3rds.

[wattsy]

Actually I think that's more like 'Designed in partnership with Leica, made by Panasonic, sold by Panasonic' - you will note that the lenses cannot be found anywhere on the Leica website, but are listed on Panasonic's website.

 

I wouldn't even go that far. These are lenses that are designed and built by Panasonic. A licensing agreement with Leica allows Panasonic to use the Leica name and usual Leica lens designations (e.g. Vario Elmar) on certain lenses. The idea that any white coated Leica employee has had any direct involvement is fanciful.

[earleygallery]

I wouldn't even go that far. These are lenses that are designed and built by Panasonic. A licensing agreement with Leica allows Panasonic to use the Leica name and usual Leica lens designations (e.g. Vario Elmar) on certain lenses. The idea that any white coated Leica employee has had any direct involvement is fanciful.

 

Maybe Leica at least run the design computations past one of their team? I'd expect they'd want to know what they're putting their name to.

 

But I'm sure that would be the extent of their involvement.

[jaapv]

Yes they do - actually ( it was this way a few years ago, probably still is) Panasonic design a lens to Leica specs, come to Solms for a week with the design team, return home -as one Leica official told me- "with drooping ears", the procedure is repeated until Leica is satisfied and the lens is released for Panasonic production, with Leica periodically checking whether specs are still met. Those Japanese Leica lenses are pretty good as a result.

[CaptZoom]

I wonder if anybody ever handled these lenses? I have the Vario-Elmarit 14-50 / 2.8-3.5 asph

The lens has a filter size of 72, a diameter of over 8 cm and is nearly 12 cm long fully extended. And that is for 4/3rds.

 

Yup. It's huge. But as you already know, it's fantastic lens.

[jaapv]

But just imagine the thing blown up to APS-C compatible size and screwed on to an X2 type body...

As it is it even looks overlarge on a brick like the Digilux 3;)

[Guest badbob]

Designed by Leica; made by Panasonic for Leica and also Panasonic ... and made to Leica's QA spec. dunk

 

I don't doubt that Leica makes certain that those lenses are held tightly to spec. I've had several Panasonics from Tz models to LX3 and LX7, and the m4/3 Pana G1. During the years I bought those cameras I read a lot of reviews, and the praise that was singled out to Panasonic for those Leica-stamped lenses was very consistent.

[dkCambridgeshire]

I wouldn't even go that far. These are lenses that are designed and built by Panasonic. A licensing agreement with Leica allows Panasonic to use the Leica name and usual Leica lens designations (e.g. Vario Elmar) on certain lenses. The idea that any white coated Leica employee has had any direct involvement is fanciful.

 

Maybe you and others who cast dispersions and doubts on the Leica D Vario and D Summilux lenses' 'Leica pedigree' might wish to read 'Story 3' and Story 5' in the 'Four Thirds Story' - where the involvement of Andreas Lenhardt (Leica Project Manager) and Kyoichi Miyazaki (Panasonic Staff Engineer) is documented ... in non-fanciful language.

 

Four Thirds | Special Contents | Four Thirds story

 

dunk

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[onceuponatime]

Maybe you and others who cast dispersions and doubts on the Leica D Vario and D Summilux lenses' 'Leica pedigree' might wish to read 'Story 3' and Story 5' in the 'Four Thirds Story' - where the involvement of Andreas Lenhardt (Leica Project Manager) and Kyoichi Miyazaki (Panasonic Staff Engineer) is documented ... in non-fanciful language.

 

Four Thirds | Special Contents | Four Thirds story

 

dunk

 

Story 3 clearly says LC1 was made by Pansonic, then Story 5 Leica claims they made it aka Digilux3. Oh dear. Same with the lens.

 

Anyhow this is known for years.

 

Given the history XVario lens may well be made by Panasonic (just as Digilux2 , Digilux 3 lens) with the glass itself from Leicas special forumla.

[onceuponatime]

But just imagine the thing blown up to APS-C compatible size and screwed on to an X2 type body...

As it is it even looks overlarge on a brick like the Digilux 3;)

 

This was 2006 dear. Nowadays lens design advancerments allow for much smaller whilst keeping speed at f2.8. Yet even in 2006 there was a constant apsc f2.8 18-50mm with 67mm filter with max length 85mm (Xvario max length 70mm).

 

Basically Leica just dont have the resources to make Autofocus lenses especially small fast, it would require a whole new plant.