Mini M? [MERGED] AKA X-Vario

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Leica made an APS zoom compact back in the day (google 'advanced photo system' ). Do you think they aimed that camera at their M users?

 

The X Vario is an up to date version of that APS compact, designed to appeal to people who otherwise wouldn't buy a - traditional - Leica.

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[Peter L]

Leica made an APS zoom compact back in the day (google 'advanced photo system' ). Do you think they aimed that camera at their M users?

 

The X Vario is an up to date version of that APS compact, designed to appeal to people who otherwise wouldn't buy a - traditional - Leica.

 

Well there is one point of view, I have owned at one time or another M6, m8,

most of the m lenses, R4 through R9 and most of the R lenses , Digilux 2 and some others.

 

Now , what was that about people who wouldn't buy a traditional Leica ?

[dkCambridgeshire]

Leica made an APS zoom compact back in the day (google 'advanced photo system' ). Do you think they aimed that camera at their M users?

 

The X Vario is an up to date version of that APS compact, designed to appeal to people who otherwise wouldn't buy a - traditional - Leica.

 

I have traditional Leicas and am also considering buying an X Vario ... and in no way can it be considered a 'version' of the C11 , That's a bit like saying that 4/3 and M4/3 formats are up to date versions of 110 film.

 

dunk

[onceuponatime]

Xvario will be Leica's best selling camera as movie stars, sports stars, celebrities, rich n famous, people who shop at burberry, prada, tom ford will snap it up as it is a prestiege product. The price is just right, any less it stops being prestiege. The spec just right for this target audience. From the massive profits, Leica will stay afloat, expand, put RnD into designing digial cl or fixed lens FF enthusiats want. I feel these were Leica's goals for XVario.Xvario will be Leica's best selling camera as from all over the world movie stars, sports stars, celebrities, rich n famous, people who shop at burberry, prada, tom ford will snap it up as it is a prestiege product. The price is just right, any less it stops being prestiege. The spec just right for this target audience. From the massive profits, Leica will stay afloat, expand, put RnD into designing digial cl or fixed lens FF enthusiats want. I feel these were Leica's goals for XVario.

[D Spohn]

Leica's marketing department set unrealistic expectations for this camera. When I saw the specs my initial reaction was disgust at the marketing BS leading to launch. After reading some reviews from good photographers and seeing their sample photos I am starting to come around. While I would like a faster zoom with more reach I understand enough about physics to realize that would make the camera much larger and more expensive.

 

I'll wait until I can rent an X Vario for a week before making up my mind. I am neither rich, a sports star, a movie star, nor someone who shops at Prada. I am not looking for a prestige product, I am looking for a tool to help me capture images that speak to my heart. If the X Vario does that I'll buy one, despite its slow lens. If it doesn't meet my needs I'll get something else.

[IkarusJohn]

Xvario will be Leica's best selling camera as movie stars, sports stars, celebrities, rich n famous, people who shop at burberry, prada, tom ford will snap it up as it is a prestiege product.

 

I find that extremely unlikely. I hope you're right, but I doubt it (though we will never know for sure).

 

The reason I say that is the justifications you give apply equally to the X1 & X2, and those cameras do not seem to have enjoyed the success you predict - this camera is bigger and heavier, but has the same format sensor ...

 

A camera is either aimed at photographers, or the point and shoot brigade - poseurs fit between the two, and will either buy and M because Brad Pitt has one, or a compact for the red dot. The point and shoot sector is in trouble due to cellphones - if you want more than what your cellphone offers, you'll eventually find yourself in the photographer sector. I think the Panaleicas have a pretty grim future. My cellphone serves that purpose perfectly.

 

For the photographers (ie, people actually interested in more than snaps, taking DNGs and wanting to look at image quality), the XV might be interesting, but they're looking in a different price bracket. The Canikon offerings will be too big, too plasticky, and those huge white lenses just too much - otherwise, that is what they'll buy. The M cameras are perfect for this sector, but they are eye wateringly expensive. Few people (apart from nutters here) will go straight to an M and a clutch of lenses (between USD 15,000 - 20,000)

 

Why do I say this so confidently? The success of the RX-1 has even surprised Sony, and Fuji seems to be doing very nicely, thank you, in exactly this sector (with an interchangeable lens system).

 

The D800s and the latest iteration of the 5D will always do well for pros and serious photographers, and the M will always be a fringe of that market. The crop dSLRs and compacts seem to me to be in a difficult place.

 

The XV is neither fish nor fowl - the X2 is hardly flying off the shelves (despite the Paul Smith make-over). All the XV does which is different from the X2 is offer zoom. How important will that be? Time will tell. Maybe it will attract M users wanting a backup (Jono makes this observation), and aspirant M users. I don't think it works in the latter category - any such buyer would be better off actually getting into the M system with an M8 and second hand lens, and trade up from there.

 

I don't wish Leica ill with this camera (on the contrary), but I don't think it's going to make a huge difference to sales. It will gather dust with the X2 at the local dealer. Anyone taking the time to go to a boutique will primarily be there for an M (typ 240), a Monochrom or a new M lens. If the mirror-less, FF, EVF M mount camera ever eventuates (to fill the gap between the X and M cameras), you might see a queue out the door ...

 

Cheers

John

[dkCambridgeshire]

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Xvario will be Leica's best selling camera as movie stars, sports stars, celebrities, rich n famous, people who shop at burberry, prada, tom ford will snap it up as it is a prestiege product. The price is just right, any less it stops being prestiege. The spec just right for this target audience. From the massive profits, Leica will stay afloat, expand, put RnD into designing digial cl or fixed lens FF enthusiats want. I feel these were Leica's goals for XVario.Xvario will be Leica's best selling camera as from all over the world movie stars, sports stars, celebrities, rich n famous, people who shop at burberry, prada, tom ford will snap it up as it is a prestiege product. The price is just right, any less it stops being prestiege. The spec just right for this target audience. From the massive profits, Leica will stay afloat, expand, put RnD into designing digial cl or fixed lens FF enthusiats want. I feel these were Leica's goals for XVario.

 

The 'rich', and the 'celebs' will buy the Paul Smith edition when it's available. The Leica FF EVIL camera could already exist as a prototype or even a beta version - especially as it's 100 years since the first UR Leica was made. Leica do not let the grass grow under their feet - they must have other FF models in the pipeline - FF model development would not have stopped with M 240 and MM. M-UR would be a very appealing model designation to Leica enthusiasts in this centenary year.

 

dunk

[Guest badbob]

I am not looking for a prestige product, I am looking for a tool to help me capture images that speak to my heart. If the X Vario does that I'll buy one, despite its slow lens. If it doesn't meet my needs I'll get something else.

 

I can't imagine who would buy a Leica X Vario for $2850 as a practical photographic tool, competitive with cameras from Nikon, Canon, Ricoh, Fuji and others. Unless that person were already inclined to spend hugely disproportionate amounts of money to get an exclusive brand like Leica for its unique properties. There may be a few technical reasons** for a non-Leica fan to buy a M9 or S2, but what the reasons would be for a X Vario I can't imagine. I bought one, but only because I'm already tuned into the Leica aesthetic that justifies paying several times as much as I would for a similar camera from those other companies. It would be interesting to hear from other X Vario purchasers who had not previously owned a Leica camera.

 

**When Leica introduced the S, M9, and X1 in Sept 2009, they offered some technical advantages over the competition as best I recall. But that was nearly 4 years ago, and I haven't heard of any of those technical breakthroughs being quoted for the X Vario.

[D Spohn]

I can't imagine who would buy a Leica X Vario for $2850 as a practical photographic tool, competitive with cameras from Nikon, Canon, Ricoh, Fuji and others. Unless that person were already inclined to spend hugely disproportionate amounts of money to get an exclusive brand like Leica for its unique properties. There may be a few technical reasons** for a non-Leica fan to buy a M9 or S2, but what the reasons would be for a X Vario I can't imagine. I bought one, but only because I'm already tuned into the Leica aesthetic that justifies paying several times as much as I would for a similar camera from those other companies. It would be interesting to hear from other X Vario purchasers who had not previously owned a Leica camera.

I'm looking for a camera that gets out of my way and lets me concentrate on taking photos, not diving through menus to find the setting I want.

 

I rented a Fuji X-E1 for a trip to Denmark last month, and was very impressed with the image quality. I did see some of the smearing on a couple of photos that people on the Fuji forum have mentioned, but most of the photos turned out excellent. I have a 24x36 print on the way from my favorite lab, so cannot comment on ultimate quality yet.

 

The Leica advantages as I see them are simplified external controls and a simplified workflow through DNG RAW files versus the proprietary Fuji RAW files. Being able to work with DNG files could mean I won't need to replace my 2009 MacBook Pro immediately for working on files while traveling. It also means I'll have RAW files that almost any image editor can work with in the future.

 

But it all comes down to image quality. The Fuji is excellent. If the Leica X Vario is as good (or even better) it will be a tough choice between that and the X-E1. The X-E1 is more versatile with its interchangeable lenses, but then there is that menu diving problem...

[bill]

It's worth pointing out that the X-E1 has a built-in raw converter for post processing on the fly...

 

Regards,

 

Bill

 

Sent from another Galaxy

[dwbell]

It's worth pointing out that the X-E1 has a built-in raw converter for post processing on the fly...

 

Regards,

 

Bill

 

Sent from another Galaxy

 

And that LR etc now can easily read the raw files and convert to DNG on import.

Also, on the Fuji, I hardly see the lens ring aperture, top dial shutter speed and Q button ISO change as "menu diving"? The XV doesn't have aperture on the lens even. So "clear controls" is subjective at best.

[iforum]

Spent an hour with the camera,I am still struggling with the viewfinder looked in the instruction manual nothing there. Can someone help?

[pgk]

When I saw the specs my initial reaction was disgust at the marketing BS leading to launch.

Who in their right minds would buy a car based on a tv advertising campaign for that car? But clearly advertising works (unless the whole world has been utterly conned for generations). IMHO Leica's advertising people are using the fame of their previous cameras to help to sell a new one, and quite rightly too. Whether or not people here (or other afficianados?) like the marketing is pretty irrelevant, as long as Leica do sell the camera, and preferably to a new consumer group. That Leica continue to stay in business and make a profit will benefit all Leica users in the long term and I don't see why the X-Vario cannot be seen in this context, as opposed to being bashed for not being something which would more than likely have a smaller market.

[lct]

+1

[pop]

Spent an hour with the camera,I am still struggling with the viewfinder looked in the instruction manual nothing there. Can someone help?

 

Your chances for a meaningful (or even useful) answer would be greater if you started your own thread with just your question and if you added some specifics to the kind of struggle you are experiencing. With the information given, helping you seems quite difficult.

[pgk]

Spent an hour with the camera,I am still struggling with the viewfinder looked in the instruction manual nothing there. Can someone help?

Its a virtual viewfinder (based on the emperor's new clothes principle) and requires shanks's pony to be used for zoom control. This system takes months and even years to appreciate and perfect and cannot possibly be comprehended in an hour:rolleyes: (< http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/barnacks-bar/287204-rolling-eyes.html).

[wattsy]

I do not think this camera is aimed at Leica enthusiasts. I think it is meant for the emerging markets. I noticed in what used to be called 3rd and 2nd world countries that the general interest of the people was more aimed at point-and shoot cameras than at DSLRs and certainly not at Leica M gear.

 

I think that is cobblers and a bit patronising at the same time. The "general interest of the people" (whatever that means) have always (at least until smartphone cameras started to be good enough) gravitated towards the P&S type cameras rather than SLR or other "enthusiast" cameras. I have no idea why you'd think this was a "2nd/3rd world" thing.

 

Incidentally, I too saw the camera yesterday. I couldn't be bothered to handle it but I could tell from the size of it that it offered no meaningful portability advantage over my M cameras. I'm sure that it is capable of very high image quality (as are most cameras nowadays) but with a maximum aperture of roughly F5 in the middle of the zoom range it is realistically an outside daylight camera.

[iforum]

Yes he bought it on a whim, well ok he bought it because it is a Leica, it is a new toy, read the Leica advertising ........... all too easy during a stopover from London. Yes the customer Leica wanted, unfortunately he will tire of it in a month or two and it will be laid to rest with the dormant m9, Fujis and Sonys etc

 

Nothing special camera wise but I can see how it appeals to budding camera people, Leica will sell as many as they want to make. Eventually some "pro photographer" will come out with a series of images pleasing to the eye thus enhancing the leica myth.

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[bill]

I think that is cobblers and a bit patronising at the same time. The "general interest of the people" (whatever that means) have always (at least until smartphone cameras started to be good enough) gravitated towards the P&S type cameras rather than SLR or other "enthusiast" cameras. I have no idea why you'd think this was a "2nd/3rd world" thing.

 

...

 

Remember when Panasonic brought out the GF1, and there were those here who pointed out with a smirk that "GF" stood for "Girl Friend"...? The pipe-chomping, tweed-wearing, "Leicaman" would never countenance such a thing

 

Regards,

 

Bill

 

Sent from another Galaxy

[dwbell]

Who in their right minds would buy a car based on a tv advertising campaign for that car? But clearly advertising works (unless the whole world has been utterly conned for generations). IMHO Leica's advertising people are using the fame of their previous cameras to help to sell a new one, and quite rightly too. Whether or not people here (or other afficianados?) like the marketing is pretty irrelevant, as long as Leica do sell the camera, and preferably to a new consumer group. That Leica continue to stay in business and make a profit will benefit all Leica users in the long term and I don't see why the X-Vario cannot be seen in this context, as opposed to being bashed for not being something which would more than likely have a smaller market.

 

I'm going to respectfully disagree pgk.

 

Brand is more than sales.

 

Leica have an existing market of very loyal, very satisfied M users. This camera was pitched directly at them, with the Mini M tag and backed by the talking head quote that this is aimed at existing M and S users. Clearly that missed it's mark by a looooong way as it's not even close to being a Mini M. Bad marketing that upset a portion of the previously happy base needlessly whilst at the same time missing the market this forum is now pretending it IS in fact aimed at.

 

Ignoring who Leica say the camera is intended for (us) and going along with the premise that it's for people who are less interested in the particulars and love the Leica "image". Why would those people want massive IQ? They're not pixel peepers. Why would they not rather have a faster lensed camera? Are they not going to get upset when the shots are blurry in the cafe or at the party? Are they not typically "A" mode shooters?

 

Also I will again, (and again, and again) force upon people my right to have individual opinions about individual aspects of a topic. OF COURSE I want Leica to sell millions of X Vario's and pump that money into the S and M development. My scepticism of the XV doesn't immediately mean I want Leica to fail in everything they do, it doesn't make me a hater. I do believe the camera is well built and has excellent IQ. That in turn doesn't mean I have to hate everything about Fuji, does it? I think the lens is too slow by a long shot and the body too big to be compact.

 

Brand is more than sales.