pgk Posted June 19, 2013 Share #2141 Posted June 19, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) I'm going to respectfully disagree pgk. Brand is more than sales. Leica have an existing market of very loyal, very satisfied M users. This camera was pitched directly at them, with the Mini M tag and backed by the talking head quote that this is aimed at existing M and S users. No problem disagreeing. If we didn't all have different ideas and requirements we wouldn't be having a discussion. But..... Whilst brand is more than sales, without sales there is no brand - obviously. And as for pitching, well, most car adverts make it clear that there car is aimed at the well-to-do who will drive impeccably on clear, sunny roads aided by handling characteristics which will help at the limit of performance. In reality most of us drive on clogged up roads in all weathers and speed is strictly curtailed. But we can dream;). And so can lots of people seeing a Leica pitched at 'serious' photographers, and although they themselves may not want to learn the nuances of image creation, owning a prestigious camera will help. Cynical? Not really, this is what marketing is all about and the fact that the new camera has attracted attention suggests that the marketing strategy has worked to a fair extent at least. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 19, 2013 Posted June 19, 2013 Hi pgk, Take a look here Mini M? [MERGED] AKA X-Vario. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jonoslack Posted June 19, 2013 Share #2142 Posted June 19, 2013 Brand is more than sales. Leica have an existing market of very loyal, very satisfied M users. This camera was pitched directly at them, with the Mini M tag and backed by the talking head quote that this is aimed at existing M and S users. Clearly that missed it's mark by a looooong way as it's not even close to being a Mini M. Bad marketing that upset a portion of the previously happy base needlessly whilst at the same time missing the market this forum is now pretending it IS in fact aimed at. I think you overestimate the homogeneity of Leica - which is, a bunch of departments with their own ideas, staffed with people with their own ideas (like every organisation). Ignoring who Leica say the camera is intended for (us) and going along with the premise that it's for people who are less interested in the particulars and love the Leica "image". Why would those people want massive IQ? They're not pixel peepers. Why would they not rather have a faster lensed camera? Are they not going to get upset when the shots are blurry in the cafe or at the party? Are they not typically "A" mode shooters? Well, the camera is clearly not directed at A mode shooters - it has the most obvious photographic controls of any recently designed camera I can think of (i.e. focusing on Aperture, Shutter and Manual Focusing). On that basis at least some of them would rather have better image quality than a faster lens As for the faster lens - I don't think that Leica would ever willingly compromise the image quality of a lens - as Sean so reasonably put it in his LULA article - you can have two of three qualities in a lens Speed Image Quality Small Size Also I will again, (and again, and again) force upon people my right to have individual opinions about individual aspects of a topic. . Absolutely - I only disagree with you about the camera :-) - which seems to me to be (almost) perfectly formed for a rather limited set of people (but I don't think these are limited to well heeled brand lovers). All the best Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwbell Posted June 19, 2013 Share #2143 Posted June 19, 2013 No problem disagreeing. If we didn't all have different ideas and requirements we wouldn't be having a discussion. But..... Whilst brand is more than sales, without sales there is no brand - obviously. And as for pitching, well, most car adverts make it clear that there car is aimed at the well-to-do who will drive impeccably on clear, sunny roads aided by handling characteristics which will help at the limit of performance. In reality most of us drive on clogged up roads in all weathers and speed is strictly curtailed. But we can dream;). And so can lots of people seeing a Leica pitched at 'serious' photographers, and although they themselves may not want to learn the nuances of image creation, owning a prestigious camera will help. Cynical? Not really, this is what marketing is all about and the fact that the new camera has attracted attention suggests that the marketing strategy has worked to a fair extent at least. I see where you're coming from but, personally, I think the days of "any press is good press" are long gone. As are the days of locking yourself in the office and not engaging your customers. Yeah, I want Leica to grow up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwbell Posted June 19, 2013 Share #2144 Posted June 19, 2013 I think you overestimate the homogeneity of Leica - which is, a bunch of departments with their own ideas, staffed with people with their own ideas (like every organisation). Well, the camera is clearly not directed at A mode shooters - it has the most obvious photographic controls of any recently designed camera I can think of (i.e. focusing on Aperture, Shutter and Manual Focusing). On that basis at least some of them would rather have better image quality than a faster lens As for the faster lens - I don't think that Leica would ever willingly compromise the image quality of a lens - as Sean so reasonably put it in his LULA article - you can have two of three qualities in a lens Speed Image Quality Small Size Absolutely - I only disagree with you about the camera :-) - which seems to me to be (almost) perfectly formed for a rather limited set of people (but I don't think these are limited to well heeled brand lovers). All the best Interesting view on the organisation, I'd have to agree and add that it shows! Bit lost on two points (which are not necessarily the same thing), who the camera is aimed at (the press release suggests M and S users!?) and who will buy the camera. I have often used the famous "pick any two" quote in my business's. However, I have the luxury of asking our clients face to face which one they want to drop. Here, Leica have told the customer which one they had to drop, which ties right back in to who will buy this camera? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 19, 2013 Share #2145 Posted June 19, 2013 I have no idea why you'd think this was a "2nd/3rd world" Because I have travelled extensively and long in that world - and not in insulated tourist areas - and know and respect the people there. As I carry a camera in almost all situations I am aware of the opinions of people around me. I fail to see what is patronising about that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkCambridgeshire Posted June 19, 2013 Share #2146 Posted June 19, 2013 I have just ordered an X Vario plus grip and it should arrive from Beauly tomorrow One of the first projects will be to try and harness some Elpro VIb c/u lenses to the camera and see if it can match the X1's performance with same. Unfortunately the only accessory available is the grip ... unable to purchase a spare battery or a lens hood. Best wishes dunk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter L Posted June 19, 2013 Share #2147 Posted June 19, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) I have just ordered an X Vario plus grip and it should arrive from Beauly tomorrow One of the first projects will be to try and harness some Elpro VIb c/u lenses to the camera and see if it can match the X1's performance with same. Unfortunately the only accessory available is the grip ... unable to purchase a spare battery or a lens hood. Best wishes dunk Congratulations, I am sure you will have a lot if fun with this X Vario , as I have with mine. I bought a 16GB scan disk extreme 95 mb/s, makes the camera respond fast. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted June 19, 2013 Share #2148 Posted June 19, 2013 Well there is one point of view, I have owned at one time or another M6, m8,most of the m lenses, R4 through R9 and most of the R lenses , Digilux 2 and some others. Now , what was that about people who wouldn't buy a traditional Leica ? Well there are always exceptions to the rule. Some Leica fans MUST have every product! I bet the vast majority of X cameras are sold to new Leica users. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter L Posted June 19, 2013 Share #2149 Posted June 19, 2013 Because I have travelled extensively and long in that world - and not in insulated tourist areas - and know and respect the people there. As I carry a camera in almost all situations I am aware of the opinions of people around me. I fail to see what is patronising about that. I think that Europe is rapidly at risk of becoming 2nd/3rd world country status, if it not already is. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted June 19, 2013 Share #2150 Posted June 19, 2013 Unfortunately the only accessory available is the grip ... unable to purchase a spare battery or a lens hood. Well in respect of the delayed accessories, Leica are certainly giving you a genuine Leica M experience with this camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted June 19, 2013 Share #2151 Posted June 19, 2013 I have traditional Leicas and am also considering buying an X Vario ... and in no way can it be considered a 'version' of the C11 , That's a bit like saying that 4/3 and M4/3 formats are up to date versions of 110 film. dunk Everything is taken so literally on this forum. That's why so many people got upset with the 'mini M' teaser. I quoted the C11 as an example of a camera made to appeal to a wider audience of customers, just as the X is today. I doubt many M users felt the need to trade in their M6's for C11's or consider one as an M back up cameras! They might have bought it for their partner/children as a gift perhaps, or just for the novelty of trying it. Fortunately for Leica the internet was not widely used at the time so they escaped the wrath of upset traditionalists! The C11, or rather APS, was aimed to replace 35mm film as being more convenient to handle and offering different formats on the same roll (actually just in camera cropping!). It was an upgrade in quality over 110 film, being larger in format of course. It was killed off with the introduction of relatively affordable digital cameras, which offered even more convenience. Fortunately in its short lifespan it had made little impact on the enthusiast market so 35mm was still the dominant format. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 19, 2013 Share #2152 Posted June 19, 2013 I think that Europe is rapidly at risk of becoming 2nd/3rd world country status, if it not already is. Unfortunately true... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wda Posted June 19, 2013 Share #2153 Posted June 19, 2013 I have just ordered an X Vario plus grip and it should arrive from Beauly tomorrow One of the first projects will be to try and harness some Elpro VIb c/u lenses to the camera and see if it can match the X1's performance with same. Unfortunately the only accessory available is the grip ... unable to purchase a spare battery or a lens hood. Best wishes dunk Well done Dunk. Do let us know your experiences with it. Regarding the lens hood, and noting Leica's own recommendation that one should be used, I do find it petty not including such a vital accessory, together with a Leica strap, as part of the base kit. OK, the price would rise, but perhaps not so much if it sold the basic bundle at a special price. I worked out that with the accessories I would consider essential, should I decide to buy one, push the budget to over £2,700! Now that would frighten some people away from purchase. Yet the main accessories are essential in my view to obtain the best from this camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkCambridgeshire Posted June 19, 2013 Share #2154 Posted June 19, 2013 Well in respect of the delayed accessories, Leica are certainly giving you a genuine Leica M experience with this camera. I assumed that the X Vario needed a different/larger battery to the X1 and X2 but they each use the same BP DC8 lithium battery - thus no need for me to buy a spare. This afternoon I modified a Leitz Elpro VIb 4.92 diopter achromatic close-up lens by filing the Series VI (44mm) thread flat and attaching (epoxying) a filed down 43mm filter ring - so now looking forward to some close-up photography experiments at camera to subject distances shorter than the native 30cm closest focus distance. And yes David, given the price of the camera, Leica could have / should have included a complimentary lens hood - instead of listing same as an optional extra costing £89.99 A bit like buying a car without a screen visor. I guess there are 43mm aftermarket lens hoods suitable for the X Vario's lens. I assume the OEM hood is not a screw in type ... find out tomorrow when the camera arrives. dunk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsh Posted June 19, 2013 Share #2155 Posted June 19, 2013 I just opened the X Vario and Leica has designed a really nice camera. Body wise, it is not much smaller than an M4, which I like. The camera fits nicely and comfortably in the hand, a bit front/lens heavy, but not unexpected. The screen on the back is a definite improvement on the X1/X2 Screen both in size and in resolution. I have only taken a couple of photos, but the optics seem impressive. As for Lens Speed, I do not see this as an issue, especially given the tremendous High ISO performance of the camera. We no longer live completely in the Film Days where higher ISO is grainy, there is a loss of contrast and resolution above 400 and fast lenses were a necessity. I believe Leica made a good compromise here. For my purposes, the autofocus is plenty fast. I will most likely add the lens hood when available. Until I have time to shoot with it, this is all I can say about it, but I have the feeling I will get the image quality I want, and that is what I care most about. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted June 19, 2013 Share #2156 Posted June 19, 2013 The X Vario lens hood will be available approx 24 months after the X1 filter tube, which is still in the Leica pipeline...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsh Posted June 19, 2013 Share #2157 Posted June 19, 2013 The Lens Hood will arrive when it arrives. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted June 19, 2013 Share #2158 Posted June 19, 2013 Considering the letter X is not that commonly used in English, there sure are a lot of camera names with an "X" in them. I cut these out from DPReview. This one has Vario in it too but is quite a mouthful,"Panasonic LUMIX G X VARIO PZ 14-42mm / F3.5-5.6 ASPH. / POWER O.I.S." A key advantage I see to the Leica is a simple easy to remember name. • Canon PowerShot SX1 IS (Mar 27, 2009) • Canon PowerShot SX10 IS (Jan 15, 2009) • Canon PowerShot SX20 IS (Jul 6, 2010) • Canon PowerShot SX50 HS (Jan 15, 2013) • Canon PowerShot SX100 IS (Dec 20, 2007) • Canon PowerShot SX110 IS (Dec 19, 2008) • Canon PowerShot SX150 IS (May 14, 2012) • Canon PowerShot SX200 IS (May 14, 2009) • Canon PowerShot SX210 IS (Jun 16, 2010) • Canon PowerShot SX230 HS (Jul 19, 2011) • Canon PowerShot SX260 HS (Jun 4, 2012) • Canon PowerShot TX1 • Canon PowerShot S110 (Digital IXUS V) (May 10, 2001) • Canon PowerShot S300 (Digital IXUS 300) (Mar 21, 2001) • Canon PowerShot S330 (Digital IXUS 330) (Apr 23, 2002) • Canon PowerShot S400 (Digital IXUS 400) (Apr 28, 2003) • Canon PowerShot SD100 (Digital IXUS II / IXY Digital 30) (May 2, 2003) • Canon PowerShot SD300 (Digital IXUS 40 / IXY Digital 50) (Nov 24, 2004) • Canon PowerShot SD400 (Digital IXUS 50 / IXY Digital 55) (Aug 11, 2005) • Canon PowerShot SD450 (Digital IXUS 55 / IXY Digital 60) (Feb 8, 2006) • Canon PowerShot SD500 (Digital IXUS 700 / IXY Digital 600) (Apr 15, 2005) • Canon PowerShot SD550 (Digital IXUS 750 / IXY Digital 700) (Oct 12, 2005) • Canon PowerShot SD700 IS (Digital IXUS 800 IS / IXY Digital 800 IS) (Jul 16, 2006) • Canon PowerShot SD790 IS (Digital IXUS 90 IS) (Dec 5, 2008) • Canon PowerShot SD800 IS (Digital IXUS 850 IS / IXY Digital 900 IS) (Jan 11, 2007) • Canon PowerShot SD850 IS (Digital IXUS 950 IS / IXY Digital 810 IS) (Feb 16, 2008) • Canon PowerShot SD870 IS (Digital IXUS 860 IS / IXY Digital 910 IS) (Oct 19, 2007) • Canon PowerShot SD880 IS (Digital IXUS 870 IS) (Dec 12, 2008) • Canon PowerShot SD900 (Digital IXUS 900 Ti) (Jan 29, 2007) • Canon PowerShot SD1100 IS (Digital IXUS 80 IS) (Feb 27, 2008) • Canon PowerShot SD4000 IS (IXUS 300 HS / IXY 30S) (Aug 2, 2010) • Canon PowerShot SD4500 IS / Digital IXUS 1000 HS / IXY 50S • Casio Exilim EX-FH25 (Jul 6, 2010) • Casio Exilim EX-FH100 (Jun 16, 2010) • Casio Exilim EX-P700 (Dec 2, 2004) • Casio Exilim EX-S10 (Dec 5, 2008) • Casio Exilim EX-V7 (May 6, 2007) • Casio Exilim EX-Z3 (May 2, 2003) • Casio Exilim EX-Z750 (Jun 10, 2005) • Casio Exilim EX-Z850 (Apr 24, 2006) • Casio Exilim EX-Z1000 (Sep 17, 2006) • Casio Exilim EX-ZR100 (Jul 19, 2011) • Casio QV-3000EX • FujiFilm FinePix F80EXR (FinePix F85EXR) (Jun 16, 2010) • Fujifilm FinePix F200EXR (Apr 30, 2009) • Fujifilm FinePix F550 EXR • Fujifilm FinePix X100 (May 16, 2011) • Fujifilm FinePix XP30 • Fujifilm X-E1 (Feb 28, 2013) • Fujifilm X-Pro1 (Jun 28, 2012) • Fujifilm X-Pro1 (Apr 3, 2012) PREVIEW • Fujifilm X10 (Dec 18, 2012) • Fujifilm X10 (Jul 11, 2012) • Fujifilm X10 (Dec 15, 2011) • Fujifilm X20 (Apr 29, 2013) • Fujifilm X100S (Mar 27, 2013) PREVIEW • Fujifilm XF1 (Dec 18, 2012) • Fujifilm XF1 • Kodak DX4900 (May 16, 2002) • Kodak DX7590 Minolta DiMAGE X Minolta DiMAGE EX 1500 Zoom • Nikon D1X (Jun 29, 2001) • Nikon D2X (Jun 1, 2005) • Nikon D3X (Feb 19, 2009) • Nikon D40X • Olympus XZ-1 (Dec 15, 2011) • Olympus XZ-1 (Jan 26, 2011) • Olympus XZ-2 iHS • Panasonic Lumix DMC-FX01 (Mar 27, 2006) • Panasonic Lumix DMC-FX7 (Dec 9, 2004) • Panasonic Lumix DMC-FX9 (Aug 26, 2005) • Panasonic Lumix DMC-FX37 (Dec 5, 2008) • Panasonic Lumix DMC-FX150 • Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX1 (Sep 30, 2005) • Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX2 (Oct 10, 2006) • Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX3 (Nov 4, 2008) • Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX5 (Dec 15, 2011) • Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX5 (Nov 23, 2010) • Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX7 (Dec 18, 2012) • Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX7 • Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX1 (Feb 14, 2012) • Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX1 • Pentax X90 Pentax MX-1 Pentax K-x (Dec 23, 2009) • Ricoh CX3 (Jun 16, 2010) • Ricoh CX5 (Jul 19, 2011) • Ricoh Caplio GX100 (Aug 7, 2007) • Ricoh GXR A12 50mm F2.5 Macro (Nov 10, 2009) • Ricoh GXR Mount A12 (Aug 5, 2011) PREVIEW • Ricoh GXR P10 28-300mm F3.5-5.6 VC (Aug 6, 2010) • Ricoh GXR S10 24-72mm F2.5-4.4 VC (Mar 18, 2010) • Ricoh PX (Aug 16, 2011) • Samsung NX10 (Apr 7, 2010) • Samsung NX20 (Apr 20, 2012) PREVIEW • Samsung NX100 (Sep 14, 2010) PREVIEW • Samsung NX200 (Feb 28, 2012) • Samsung NX200 (Dec 20, 2011) • Samsung NX210 Samsung EX2F • Sony Alpha NEX-3 (Jun 7, 2010) • Sony Alpha NEX-3N (Feb 25, 2013) PREVIEW • Sony Alpha NEX-5 (Jun 7, 2010) • Sony Alpha NEX-5N (Dec 20, 2011) • Sony Alpha NEX-5N (Oct 3, 2011) • Sony Alpha NEX-5R (Aug 29, 2012) PREVIEW • Sony Alpha NEX-6 (Mar 25, 2013) • Sony Alpha NEX-7 (Dec 20, 2011) • Sony Alpha NEX-7 (Dec 13, 2011) • Sony Alpha NEX-C3 (Dec 20, 2011) • Sony Alpha NEX-C3 (Aug 22, 2011) • Sony Alpha NEX-F3 • Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX1 (Feb 19, 2013) • Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX100 (Dec 18, 2012) • Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX100 Names clipped from DPReview. And then we can go back to film cameras for still more. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkCambridgeshire Posted June 19, 2013 Share #2159 Posted June 19, 2013 The X Vario lens hood will be available approx 24 months after the X1 filter tube, which is still in the Leica pipeline...... Given that Leica is a relatively small volume manufacturer compared to Far East camera manufacturers, they have done quite well to ship X Vario cameras to most premier dealers by June 11. Accessories will follow. Not many X1 and X2 users actually need a filter tube and the Kiwi filter holder is more than adequate, reasonably priced, and well made ... as are the third party automatic lens caps. dunk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nibbler Posted June 19, 2013 Share #2160 Posted June 19, 2013 I received my XV a few days ago, and I have positives and negatives to report. It is very well built and well balanced, feels almost like an M, more substantial than my X1 if that makes sense. I love the lens controls, both the zoom ring and the manual focus are much better than any other digital camera I have owned (that includes the D2). The image quality, bearing in mind I have only looked at jpegs on screen, not large prints, is magnificent. However, the lens is slow. Without being an optical engineer, I expect that in today's computerised world it is easy to construct a lens with edge to edge sharpness if aperture is small enough. If Leica had pushed for larger aperture, say a 2.8-4 as with the Fuji X zoom, edges would have suffered and people might have complained about the lens being subpar. If one accepts the constraints of the lens (in terms of light gathering capability) I don't think one can fault it (in terms of image quality). For me, it will be an excellent all round small camera, and I know that anything I capture will be beautiful (the image quality, not necessarily the subject ). But I will also bring with me a camera with a lens that has a larger aperture, just in case I need it (probably the X100s if traveling light). But I will keep it and learn to love it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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