M240 liveview and focus confirmation in optical viewfinder

[digitalfx]

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Are you saying that when LV is used on the M240, and the "red image highlighting" that was indicated upon focussing, in the LCD was not focus confirmation ?

 

If that is the case, my bad misunderstanding for what I saw in the M240/EVF that I was using last night.

 

It is focus confirmation, but its telling you whats in focus not the other way around.

The rangefinder is just a optical view port. To do what you want there has to be some interaction between your eye or brain and the camera. This is physically impossible with the current M240

 

 

Focusing on a non-moving object, and I thought the red-shimmering in the LCD image was "LV analytics telling me this object is in focus"

 

 

Its simply contrast detection. Its highlighting the area with maximum contrast, which is generally the area of sharpest focus.

[Rick]

Rick, this was a great example of how we should conduct ourselves on this forum. I just read through this post and realized immediately where the misunderstanding happened. You explained the problem in a very polite and understandable manner for the OP without making anyone feel stupid. This is what I call constructive use of the forum.

 

Thanks, I'm trying. My new moto is WWJD... What Would Jono Do.

[diogenis]

Last night at our local M240 launch, got to play with the M240.

 

Question for Leica and a potential firmware change.......

 

With Liveview enabled, would it be possible to provide some visual "focus confirmation" in the optical viewfinder ?

 

Eg maybe have the frameline switch to the alternating colour "Red to White" or "White to Red" at the moment of focus ?

 

Hoping I will escape the claws of 01af, I would say that it would be possible if the LV algorithms were only focused on a very small area of coverage in the center of your frame, which it would not be far off to what we are doing today with our RF patch.

Obviously there is no way of the camera knowing what you have in mind when you are focusing, but this way you are directing the camera CPU that you want a very specific area in the center to be in focus.

After all, how do you guys think dSLRs focus?

 

Also, they can even help you more by adding a coloured led that shines in gradations, also showing you the direction you need to turn the dial to get an accurate focus

[diogenis]

Okay—imagine you were the Leica M product manager, and it's your job to tell the engineers what to do. When exactly do you want the framelines to flash?

 

I would say: Hans I want the framelines to change colour from A to B or B to A according to what the user wants red or white, when a small center area of the frame is in focus. The magnification of the area or accuracy would be handled automatically as I choose lenses, or manually as the user desires. :D

Then I would took the whip out

[digitalfx]

ok, where is Ashton?

 

why don't we just use the EVF and call it a day.

[diogenis]

Because the OP has a valid request that needs adressing maybe?

Because some photographers first focus on the RF patch and then check the LV screen maybe?

[digitalfx]

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Because the OP has a valid request that needs adressing maybe?

Because some photographers first focus on the RF patch and then check the LV screen maybe?

 

It was a joke, but since you posed it as a question-

I think there is two pages addressing his request.

 

Do they really? Have you ever used LV? if they do as you suggest, what is the chance of the photo being in focus?

 

where is Ashton?

[diogenis]

Yes they do. No I haven't, have you ever driven a Laferrari? Don't ask me, ask them.

Ashton is being chased by James

[digitalfx]

They focus with the rangefinder, then move their eye away from the optical finder and look at LV for what reason?

 

who are these people? and why is James chasing him? Are you Ashton?

[diogenis]

Son, you asking too many questions. So I will reply with only what you really need to know:

It's Bond

James Bond is chasing Ashton.

[marknorton]

In theory, you could think of using LV to provide confirmation in the optical viewfinder and do what the OP is suggesting but I think it's fraught with problems.

 

You could think, for example, of an approach where the camera looks at the area represented by the focus patch - which is what you use to get focus confirmation in the OVF - and if there is some highlighting within that area, then at least something may be in focus and it would be possible to provide some sort of indication in the OVF.

 

One problem is identifying the area on the sensor represented by the focus patch. First, it changes with focal length, a tiny area on a WATE set at 16mm, a huge area on a 135mm Telyt.

 

Second, the fact that the sensor area to examine is large on the longer and most critical focal lengths means there is plenty of scope for achieving focus on something other than what you want.

 

Third, the focus patch moves as you focus closer to perform basic parallax correction and the camera would have to mimic that in deciding where to look on the sensor. To do that, the camera needs to know how close the lens is focussed and although it knows that mechanically from the rangefinder coupling, that information is not available - and would be difficult to get - in the camera's digital world.

 

So whiile I can see what the OP is suggesting, in real world usage, I think it would be difficult.

[diogenis]

What the OP is suggesting (I would bet) is where things will go with M's sooner or later. This aid will be of great help for the older clients of Leica that can no longer focus rapidly using the optical patch, or having eye sight problems.

[LocalHero1953]

The OP's original request seemed, to me, sensible and desirable in principle, and didn't deserve the sarcastic response from some. Yes, the meaning of "when it is in focus" had to be sorted out, and I suspect this is way beyond a firmware update.

 

But like others with limited budgets, I have wondered whether the M240 is worth the upgrade from the M9, or whether it would be better to skip a generation and wait for Leica's engineers to get a grip of the viewfinder system of the M240. Switching from the traditional Leica simplicity of a single optical viewfinder to three ways of looking at the view, including a separate lump on top, has a strong "temporary fix" look about it. So, if the M11 has a a single hybrid optical/electronic integrated viewfinder with focus peaking overlay, I might even shell out some cash for it - and I don't see it as magic or impossible.

 

This isn't intended as criticism of the M240 specifically - every model of every gadget these days has these temporary fixes that are sorted out next time: in Leica M terms, think of the M8 sensor size, or the M9 rear screen quality.

[lct]

Not that i'd like that to happen but it's no big deal to get frame lines blinking the same way as other leds can do in DSLR viewfinders. Just half-press the shutter release on the focus point and turn the focus ring until the frame lines start or stop blinking as expected.

[mjh]

With Liveview enabled, would it be possible to provide some visual "focus confirmation" in the optical viewfinder ?

Yes, it would be possible – in principle. Leica had actually implemented something like that in early prototypes of the new M, but since it did not work reliably this feature didn’t make it into the eventual design. I haven’t seen it in action myself so I cannot say what it it did exactly – maybe an LED lighting up when a given micro-contrast was achieved in the image center. It is easy to see why this would be unreliable. And I don’t think this could be improved to the point where it would actually be usable.

[kdriceman]

And focus confirmation does exist with certain DSLR/lens combos. The focus point(s) will flash and, at least on the Canon/Zeiss combo I have used, beepswhen focus is achieved (at the focus point chosen by the photographer). Of course, these use specific focus points to enable the user to choose what he/she wants to be in focus. Although perhaps possible to do this with with the M and EVF, to do it so it is consistent and reliable within the OVF would require a complete redesign of the OVF and, I'm guessing additional hardware, electronics and of course firmware in the M.

[digitalfx]

The OP asked "Question for Leica and a potential firmware change......."

 

my answers were specific to his question, not some future hardware.

 

And my sarcastic replies were not directed at him but someone else's response. It was suggested that "some photographers" first focus with the rangefinder, then move to LV.

This is not how LV is intended. You either use the rangefinder to focus or you use LV. You never use both.

[01af]

It was suggested that "some photographers" first focus with the rangefinder, then move to live view. This is not how live view is intended. You either use the rangefinder to focus or you use live view. You never use both.

Statements containing the word 'never' are always wrong

 

Seriously—there is no rule that prohibits using both. To the contrary—one of the benefits of live view is to make accessory finders obsolete. You can focus with the rangefinder and then frame your picture using live view because with short focal lengths, rangefinder focusing is quicker and more accurate.

[lct]

The Leica EVF will render OVFs obsolete when pigs can fly if it is not vastly superior to the Olympus VF2 on the M240. The VF2 works fine on the latter when nothing moves but images are so jerky on moving subjects that i can't imagine another application than landscapes and still portraiture for this mediocre (to be kind) combo.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[digitalfx]

Statements containing the word 'never' are always wrong

 

 

Ok then rarely if ever.

I cant imagine anyone actually doing what you suggest. Once you focus with the rangefinder, you will then need to reposition the camera to use LV to frame. Your shot is no longer in focus at this point. Also why would you go thru all this trouble? The frame lines were right there in front of you.

 

You can focus with the rangefinder and then frame your picture using live view because with short focal lengths, rangefinder focusing is quicker and more accurate.

 

LV adds a delay to the process, so typically you either use one or the other. The system was not designed to use both together. I cant imagine anyone practically doing what you are suggesting. Furthermore, when you turn on LV you have just negated any speed associated with rangefinder focusing.