kididdoc Posted June 28, 2007 Share #21 Posted June 28, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) I have a wonderful DR and a old rigid with exactly the same focal length inscription inside of each ie. 51.9N...identical... so.... I unscrewed the nice lens cassette from the DR and placed it into the nice mount of the rigid... perfect fit, now to try it out so stay posted...over the next day or two... thanks, Steve Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 28, 2007 Posted June 28, 2007 Hi kididdoc, Take a look here 1963 Summicron 50/2 DR Won't Mount on M8. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
lars_bergquist Posted June 28, 2007 Share #22 Posted June 28, 2007 That "well respected Japanese Leica expert" was wrong. It is still impossible to manufacture and assemble a complex optical unit without any tolerances. So actual focal length does vary a little bit. This can be compensated for within the mount, or by selective assembly. At least during the 1950's and 1960's Leitz made focusing mounts for three minor variations of focal length and gave them lens cells accordingly. The complicated Dual Range mount however was made only for 51.9mm lens cells. So they received only those cells. But there is no optical quality difference. A cell that tested out as e.g. 51.2mm was not inferior in optical performance, as long as it got the right mount. For quite a long time Leitz offered empty screw-mount lens mounts for the 50mm Summicron, so that owners of both SM and M cameras could switch optics. But you had to order a mount for the right focal length. So even today a switch is possible if you can find an orphaned M mount of the right category. But chances are slim. Your best bet would be to find a good regular Summicron instead. You will find that it too is a real piece of steam engineering, built out of solid brass. An interesting recent article in Viewfinder (the LHSA bulletin) pointed out that there are two mount versions of both Summicrons. The early 1950's type has knurling ON the ridges of the focusing ring, the 1960's type has knurling BETWEEN the ridges. The later lenses are also a bit crisper, with slightly better micro-contrast. There seems to be no difference in optical contstruction proper, but these were years when great advances were made in coating techniques, and this may well be the explanation. The old man from the Brass Age Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted June 28, 2007 Share #23 Posted June 28, 2007 I have a wonderful DR and a old rigid with exactly the same focal length inscription inside of each ie. 51.9N...identical... so.... I unscrewed the nice lens cassette from the DR and placed it into the nice mount of the rigid... perfect fit, now to try it out so stay posted...over the next day or two... thanks, Steve YUP ! Steve, you have the capability to answer definitely the question : ARE THE DR AND NON-DR LENSES OF THE SAME QUALITY ? Try both the lens units with the same mount, find some significant subject (we don't ask for lab test subjects ), do some shot at 160 ASA, DNG, tripod if necessary, f2 to f 8... AND POST the results ! we are anxious to see... I am going to verify my similar couple of 50 Crons...the DR is from '60, the normal from '63... 200.000 ca. gap between s/n... I'll see Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kididdoc Posted June 28, 2007 Share #24 Posted June 28, 2007 interesting that when I exchange the lens cassettes (each of which is 51.9N) on the respective mounts, the alignment of the markings on the cassette with those of the mount do not align exactly as before, on the original...they are screwed in fully, but the exact alignment is skewed... I'm not sure why this is, nor even if it matters at all...possibly it is of no real consequence. Steve Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lars_bergquist Posted June 28, 2007 Share #25 Posted June 28, 2007 YUP ! Steve, you have the capability to answer definitely the question : ARE THE DR AND NON-DR LENSES OF THE SAME QUALITY ? Try both the lens units with the same mount, find some significant subject (we don't ask for lab test subjects ), do some shot at 160 ASA, DNG, tripod if necessary, f2 to f 8... AND POST the results ! we are anxious to see...I am going to verify my similar couple of 50 Crons...the DR is from '60, the normal from '63... 200.000 ca. gap between s/n... I'll see Now, now ... even if there would be a statistical quality difference, which I doubt, you cannot ascertain that by testing a sample of two! You would have to test at least a dozen of each in order to obtain a statistically significant result, even if you would be satisfied with a pretty low p-value. The old man from the Age of Pencil Mathematics Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kididdoc Posted June 28, 2007 Share #26 Posted June 28, 2007 easy guys... I am not in the lens testing business... especially when it comes to statistical analysis... I just want it to work...if it works "OK" I'll let you know, and you can take care of the rest... the part about alignment being not correct/exact still bothers me and demands an explanation, though alignment may not matter for correct function... :-) Steve Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted June 28, 2007 Share #27 Posted June 28, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Now, now ... even if there would be a statistical quality difference, which I doubt, you cannot ascertain that by testing a sample of two! You would have to test at least a dozen of each in order to obtain a statistically significant result, even if you would be satisfied with a pretty low p-value. The old man from the Age of Pencil Mathematics Yeah Lars, I was semi-serious... simply I like to see, posted, the same pictures taken with slightly different lenses... I was something disappointed when I posted weeks ago a number of "unscientific focus test" (newspaper at 1,5 mt) made with M8 and some of my Leica 35s, and received not a single comment, sob... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kididdoc Posted June 28, 2007 Share #28 Posted June 28, 2007 I am shooting now to see some image results... nothing that I will publish in an optical journal... :-) but to see how the setup works... that is what mattters to me, any thoughts about the logic used here or the question of whether the alignment of the markings may mean anything in terms of the optical function/outcome...? thanks...Steve Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kididdoc Posted June 28, 2007 Share #29 Posted June 28, 2007 it works... Steve Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/19073-1963-summicron-502-dr-wont-mount-on-m8/?do=findComment&comment=292915'>More sharing options...
carstenw Posted June 28, 2007 Share #30 Posted June 28, 2007 I have a '62 DR and can't mount it on my M8, except at 0,9m, and then I can't focus it. Even at that distance (the farthest focusing point in the near range) I don't have rangefinder coupling, so I have to guess the distance. I did try it experimentally once, and took a shot with my 50 Lux Asph for comparison. The DR has much nicer colours, and I would love to use it. Do I need to look for a regular 50 Cron with a 51,9mm etching to make this work? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kididdoc Posted June 28, 2007 Share #31 Posted June 28, 2007 I think that this thread speaks for itself.... just be careful with that DR mount on the M8...as you try to focus out...the back of the lens will protrude and do bad things to the innards of your camera...Steve Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theodor Heinrichsohn Posted June 29, 2007 Share #32 Posted June 29, 2007 I have a '62 DR and can't mount it on my M8, except at 0,9m, and then I can't focus it. Even at that distance (the farthest focusing point in the near range) I don't have rangefinder coupling, so I have to guess the distance. I did try it experimentally once, and took a shot with my 50 Lux Asph for comparison. The DR has much nicer colours, and I would love to use it. Do I need to look for a regular 50 Cron with a 51,9mm etching to make this work? Carsten, I have a DR # 2.358.114 (1969), a rigid screw type for the IIIg (1959) and a black rigid one (1962) for the M's. They all have the 51.9 N engraving on the screw-off lens barrel and matching numbers on the mechanical part. The DR will not fit onto the M8 (same as yours), but the other two give very similar results on the M8. I have not tested the head of the DR on one of the other mechanical parts. I suggest you try and find a later rigid 50/2, preferably produced as close as possible to 1968-1969, as the later lenses seem to be a bit crisper, more transparent in their colours. Make sure that the 51.9 N is scratched in and that the lens number and the mechanical part number are identical. Trying the lens out before buying will be your best bet. As a user rather than collector I have always looked very carefully at the glass to see that it is perfect, and accept some signs of use on the mechanical part. The helicoid action must, however, be smooth. Best of luck in your search. Teddy Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted July 8, 2007 Share #33 Posted July 8, 2007 I think I will look for a rigid later Cron one of these days, but meanwhile, I am still curious, and have fiddled a bit with the DR on my M8, to try to figure out exactly what is going on, and I have discovered that I can actually focus in the near range with the glasses on, as well as being able to mount the lens when it is focus to 1,2-1,5m, and once mounted, I can focus from 1-3m, but not beyond. The near-cam bumps into the black shroud somewhere inside the, but I can't tell exactly where. It is possible that removing a small amount of plastic would allow the lens to work, but then, I am not about to do this. At least I can make portraits with it, at near range, so I will try that. Btw, I think what I mentioned earlier about the colours of the DR Cron being preferable to my 50 Lux ASPH was incorrect. I just didn't have an IR filter on the Cron and forgot to adjust. I will have another try. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted November 3, 2007 Share #34 Posted November 3, 2007 The questions about the DR intrigued me... and this afternoon, scrutinizing my huge bunch of old accessories, I FOUND AN ELEGANT WAY TO USE IT ON M8. And tested it, of course... For many years (about '60 to '73) Leitz sold an accessory coded SOMKY (16507) made by a goggle unit similar (optically identical, I think) to the one provided with the DR Cron, attached to a mount with helicoid focusing with RF cam and a female bayonet to fit the tube of the Elmars 50 (with "floating" mount): a similar device existed for years and years for LTM bodies (NOOKY, well known to collectors). With this device , one can focus to ,5 meters, as with the DR Summicron. Later on, they added an adapter ring UOORF (16508) that allowed the mounting of the lens unit of non-rectractable Summicrons... and the DR Summicron has of course the capabilty to unscrew the lens unit: unuseful when you have its proper goggle unit, but when, as with M8, you cannot make use of it, here is that the old SOMKY/UOORF combo can still stand on its own... Here are two pics of the SOMKY, UOORF, Cron DR lens unit combo, assembled and disassembled: Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! (both taken with M8 and TE 90) And... WORKS FINE ! I quickly made a pair of "flat subject" shots, at about 55 cm : focusing was a little critical, but closing to f8 or 11 all went good, the two pics are crops about 16 cm wide. As you can see, also from the above pics, I didn't take much care of color balancing (Laney's book cover is white...and I changed the lamp in the shots of the device...) I am pleased to have found a way to have a decent close focus solution in house (for real macro, there is always the Viso...); now I am curious to test how the Elmars will perform with the same device... next day... Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! (both taken with M8 and TE 90) And... WORKS FINE ! I quickly made a pair of "flat subject" shots, at about 55 cm : focusing was a little critical, but closing to f8 or 11 all went good, the two pics are crops about 16 cm wide. As you can see, also from the above pics, I didn't take much care of color balancing (Laney's book cover is white...and I changed the lamp in the shots of the device...) I am pleased to have found a way to have a decent close focus solution in house (for real macro, there is always the Viso...); now I am curious to test how the Elmars will perform with the same device... next day... ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/19073-1963-summicron-502-dr-wont-mount-on-m8/?do=findComment&comment=392818'>More sharing options...
john_newell Posted November 3, 2007 Share #35 Posted November 3, 2007 ARE THE DR AND NON-DR LENSES OF THE SAME QUALITY The Dual Range and Rigid 50mm Summicrons of the same vintage are optically identical in formulation. If a particular DR yeilds better images than a Rigid, it's an accident resulting from lens-to-lens variances that could as easily occur with a pair of DR lenses. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kididdoc Posted November 3, 2007 Share #36 Posted November 3, 2007 as John Newell said the DR and rigid of same vintage, same optics... I love the look of these 'crons... I now have the lux 50mm ASPH...advice...be careful...while a wonderful optical instrument, this lens is so sharp and contrasty, that photos from it often suffer from an excess of riches... images occasionally appear harsh... images not reminding one of honey, rather like chewing on glass... Steve Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philippe D. Posted November 3, 2007 Share #37 Posted November 3, 2007 I FOUND AN ELEGANT WAY TO USE IT ON M8.You know, the Summicron DR can be used on M8 without any problems, as long as you mount it with the "macro" setting (the googles) on.Never use it as normal, only as macro. You have two solutions. You press the little knob, on the top, to reach the 0,9m mark and mount it on the body and then put the googles on. Or you take away the black bakelite stop-pin from the google and mount the lens with the googles, so you automaticly have the 0,9m setting on. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted November 4, 2007 Share #38 Posted November 4, 2007 You know, the Summicron DR can be used on M8 without any problems, as long as you mount it with the "macro" setting (the googles) on.Never use it as normal, only as macro. You have two solutions. You press the little knob, on the top, to reach the 0,9m mark and mount it on the body and then put the googles on. Or you take away the black bakelite stop-pin from the google and mount the lens with the googles, so you automaticly have the 0,9m setting on. Yuk, Philippe, thanks, I didn't red with sufficient attention all the posts of the thread... was so happy to have found my old SOMKY... oh well, I'll keep the DR in the macro position... unless I find that my other Summicron non DR (ca. same age) performs equal to the DR with the SOMKY... I love to use those old accessories... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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