g80 Posted March 15, 2007 Share #21 Posted March 15, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Just out of interest, when you expose film, it is actually different than exposing for digital. Since films have different exposure latitudes, Colour Reversal has the smallest range (1.5 to 2 Stops), Negative film has about 5 stops and Ilford B&W film has up to 9 stops. What this basically means is the following, if you're shooting colour reversal film, meter for the highlights, and when you're shooting negative film, meter for the shadows. Negative film handles overexposure (hot spots) much better than reversal film. When your scene exceeds the latitudes of the film, start looking at using neutral graduated filters to try and balance the scene - like I said, when the bug hits you, it hits HARD. Andreas I'm also new to film photography, and I don't think I understand- are you suggesting one should meter for shadows, when using negative film? Does this apply when you are using TTL spot metering? With digital I meter for what I want to be correctly exposed. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 15, 2007 Posted March 15, 2007 Hi g80, Take a look here Just joined the film club. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
imported_peter_m Posted March 15, 2007 Share #22 Posted March 15, 2007 Good topic! Allow me to get in on this to, not new to film but I am sure new to processing. I find this all most interesting and the idea of processing my own film is appealing, specially since good labs are a bit scarce around here. I thought the easiest would be to get started with B&W haven't shot any of that since I was a kid. When you process B&W dose every film brand require its own developer or is there a one for all solution. What is the difference between all the developers? Any and all information would be much appreciated. Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bernd Banken Posted March 15, 2007 Share #23 Posted March 15, 2007 Peter, I'm not sure whether to answer in german, but here is a link to more information about films and developer: http://www.fotoimpex.co.uk/ There is a german site, pls. search photoimpex, Berlin. Bernd Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rolf Posted March 15, 2007 Share #24 Posted March 15, 2007 Rodinal : shelf life is as close to forever as it gets. Diluted 1+50 for tight grain, high sharpness and great tonality http://www.leica-camera-user.com/nature-wildlife/18103-falcon.html Gruesse aus Koeln Rolf Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidStone Posted March 15, 2007 Share #25 Posted March 15, 2007 Good topic! Allow me to get in on this to, not new to film but I am sure new to processing. I find this all most interesting and the idea of processing my own film is appealing, specially since good labs are a bit scarce around here. I thought the easiest would be to get started with B&W haven't shot any of that since I was a kid. When you process B&W dose every film brand require its own developer or is there a one for all solution. What is the difference between all the developers? Any and all information would be much appreciated. Peter You could hardly do better than to get a copy of Ansel Adams' book The Negative. In it he makes the point that (I'm quoting from memory) "a developer is not a magic potion that when applied to a piece of film, produces a masterpiece". He also says that the differences between developers are small and so produce subtle distinctions that maybe not everyone will see. Most photographers will have their favourite brew that they claim is better than any other, but almost any standard developer will produce good results with almost any BW film. If you want to be quite safe, use the developer that's recommended by the film manufacturer. But don't forget that all the knowledge accumulated by old "wet" photographers (like me) is based upon the use of the negs to produce silver-image prints. If you are going to scan, then it's probably best to go for dye-based C41 films like XP2. But do try wet developing while it's still possible, at least it's something that you can brag about to your grandchildren. David Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted March 15, 2007 Share #26 Posted March 15, 2007 When you process B&W dose every film brand require its own developer or is there a one for all solution. What is the difference between all the developers? Peter, I wouldn't worry too much at this stage about the difference between developers. If you want to try home development buy some Kodak Xtol, Kodak D76 or Ilford ID11 (this is virtually the same as D76). These will work well with almost any silver based film such as Tri-X, Tmax, FP4, HP5 and the Delta range and all will give excellent results. Xtol is the easiest of the 3 to mix as the powder can be mixed at room temperature. You will end up with what is known as 'stock solution' this should be kept in airtight containers and diluted to working strength just before development. For development times take a look at the Digital Truth website - Digitaltruth Photo - and click on the massive development chart link. Personally I wouldn't get the Adams book, I think for your first films what's needed is a simple technical guide such as the one found on Ilford's website. Get the book later if you want. If you have any further questions feel free to ask. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andit Posted March 15, 2007 Share #27 Posted March 15, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) I'm also new to film photography, and I don't think I understand- are you suggesting one should meter for shadows, when using negative film? Does this apply when you are using TTL spot metering? With digital I meter for what I want to be correctly exposed. Basically what this means is the following. Negative (mainly C41 process) film handles highlights very well, but tends to lose details in the shadow areas of the image. So by metering for the shadows you "open" up the dark areas of the image, without losing all the details in the highlights. Reversal Film (slide film, E6 process) on the other hand tends to really blow highlights out completely. You lose all details - the image "burns out". On the positive side, slide film handles the shadow areas extremely well. Where negative film tends to lose the details in the shadow areas (so you end up having black areas on your image), slide film captures and maintains the shadow details very well. Interestingly enough, digital, just like slide film, handles the shadow areas very well but also tends to burn out the highlights. I know of quite a few people who set there exposure compensation to underexpose by half to one stop for digital. Negative film generally has an exposure latitude of 4 stops, in the ratio of -1 to +3 stops. What this means is that the film will preserve all details from 1 stop underexposure to 3 stops overexposure. Keeping that in mind, if you take various readings from the scene, and the difference between the lightest and the darkest part of the scene does not exceed 4 stops, you can lock in the exposure setting that corresponds to -1/+3 and have a perfect exposure. Just to be on the safe side though, braket your exposures. In terms of using TTL metering, this is where spot metering comes in very handy. If you're using an M camera with center weighted average metering, there are two ways that you can do this. Get a 18% grey card from your photo dealer (Kodak makes a real good one), place that into the image you want to capture, meter the reflected light off that and use that exposure. The other way of doing this is using the "Sunny 16" rule. This means that, in clear sunny weather, if you set the lens on an aperture of f/16, you can use the ISO film number as a guide. If you're using ISO 100 film, set the shutter speed to 1/125, if you use ISO 400 film then use 1/500. Basically you want to use the closest shutter speed to what your ISO value is. This all sounds terribly complicated. It is not - it just takes practice. Within no time at all you'll be able to judge what exposure to use. Once you get the experience, you can actually pick up very quickly if your camera's meter goes out of "sync", or starts giving you strange readings. I hope that this has helped you along a bit further. Please feel free to email me privately if you need some more advice or help. Andreas Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
innerimager Posted March 15, 2007 Author Share #28 Posted March 15, 2007 If you are going to scan, then it's probably best to go for dye-based C41 films like XP2. David- Could you please discuss this i bit more. I've seen this mentioned, and I do plan on scanning. Why would chromogenic film scan better? Wouldn't one lose the benefits available in other film stock as to particular character grain structure, etc. that is integral to B&W? Can't these qualities be scanned? thanks....Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted March 15, 2007 Share #29 Posted March 15, 2007 Peter - and appologies to David for butting in, using C41 means that you can use digital ICE to clean up the negatives by automatically removing scratches and dust. This is something that you cannot do with traditional b&w films, so you either have to keep your negatives very clean or reconsile yourself to a lot of digital spitting. Some people also find scanning C41 easier. Personally I have never had issues with scanning traditional films, and as you say some of the character of b&w is lost with films such as XP2 IMHO. My personal experience is that while C41 lack grain they also lack character, looking oversmooth and appearing to lack in sharpness.. All just my opinion. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
innerimager Posted March 15, 2007 Author Share #30 Posted March 15, 2007 Steve- What is the quality of C41 that accounts for this? Is it scratch resistant? and what is digital ICE? thanks...Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted March 15, 2007 Share #31 Posted March 15, 2007 Peter, digital ICE is a hardware system built into some scanners. The dust and scratch removal is a function of the scanner not the film. Not all scanners have digital ICE, but in the ones that do it works by shining an infra-red light through the film. Dust is identified because it it opaque to the IR light, unlike the film emulsion which is clear. Software in the scanner then uses something similar to cloning in Photoshop to overwrite the area of the scan where the dust was. This slows down the scan, but is very effective. The problem with traditional b&w films is that they use grains of silver to create the image in the negative. If using ICE the scanner sees these in a similar way to how it sees dust as they too are opaque to the IR light. This can result in a horrible looking image. Hence digital ICE can't be used with traditional films. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
innerimager Posted March 15, 2007 Author Share #32 Posted March 15, 2007 got it, thanks so much Steve....Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikej Posted March 15, 2007 Share #33 Posted March 15, 2007 Welcome, Peter. I too started in digital and then bought a M6 ttl (.72) to test the film waters. Never looked back, now shooting with an MP and a Hasselblad. I haven't had any problems yet with software incompatibility, firmware issues, sudden death syndrome, etc. There is great peace of mind in having a reliable camera by your side, especially when many shell out big bucks for photo trips only to find their (electronic) equipment isn't reliable. Best of luck to you, and post some shots in the photo forum! Mike Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
innerimager Posted March 15, 2007 Author Share #34 Posted March 15, 2007 Thanks Mike, great to hear your story. I've never had major breakdown problems with my digital cameras, but nevertheless having entirely manual cameras that can operate without a battery, (having an external meter with a battery would be cool however ;>) is definitely one of the appeals. I promise I will post as soon as I have something worthwhile. I'm on my first roll, checking shutter accuracy just yet! best....Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_peter_m Posted March 16, 2007 Share #35 Posted March 16, 2007 Thank you all for the helpful tips, Bernd, Both German and English are fine Thank you for the link, lots of useful information. David, That book is on the going to get list. I am disappointed, I hoped to have a quick magic solution, three times shaking all done I think I will just start with something simple and start experimenting once I got the basics figured out. I like to stick with the real BW films, and C41 is a bit more evolved for home processing, I am trying to get away from having to use the local lab. A wet darkroom may follow one time, all a mater of collecting all the equipment, having the space and time. It be hybrid film/digitized for now. Steve, Great link that will come in handy, and I see what you mean by not to worry to much on what developer to use with what. Xtol might be just the one to start with, powder be easy to ship and it sounds like Its pretty easy to mix,will have to see what I can get my fingers on. Now the developer thing is more clear now, next be a stop bath and fixer, is that the same then with the developer any one will work or is there a ideal combination of developer, fixer? Wetting agent, is that something you should use or is it optional? Thank you all again, you guys are great Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron110n Posted March 16, 2007 Share #36 Posted March 16, 2007 When you process B&W dose every film brand require its own developer or is there a one for all solution. What is the difference between all the developers? . Peter Hi Peter, It's like cooking or baking. We use a recipe book. I use this book "The Film Developing Cook Book" by Stephen G. Anchell, Steve Anchell, Bill Troop. Digitaltruth.com will be my cross reference if I don't find it in the book. The book will tell you what developers will work on a particular film and particular ISO, how many ISO stops can you push or pull and the dilution to push or pull. Also the temp. Some are are 20C and some are 24C. Like my earlier sample, it was 24C, because "the book say's so". It also give options if you need more contrast on your negative. Longer developing time means more contrast. Perhaps if you find your film to be too contrasty for your subject then choose a lesser time. *** Developer, Stop Bath, Fixer, Hypo Clearing Solution, Photo Flo are cheap and mostly water when diluted. So toss them after use so there won't be no... uh oh... if you reuse. I learned that long time ago... "the hard way". *** Always date and label your developer.**** Best, -Ron Links: Basic black and white film developing.(II) Silverlight tutorials. Basic black and white film developing. DarkroomSource Developing your own Black & White film Developing Black and White FIlm It's easy and fun!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_peter_m Posted March 16, 2007 Share #37 Posted March 16, 2007 Thank you Ron, Some more great links and helpful information. Done some reading..... looks like doing BW film isn't so much different then doing Rawhide.... everyone who dose it has afavorite recipe. I bet there is more people developing film then putting up rawhide I see that the chemistry isn't very expensive, just got to find a place to get it. You guys down south have a much better selection. There is some drawbacks to living out in the sticks. Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron110n Posted March 17, 2007 Share #38 Posted March 17, 2007 looks like doing BW film isn't so much different then doing Rawhide There you go Peter... Very similar to prepping rawhide. It takes art and chemistry to make fine leather. Same as B&W processing. At this point you already have the edge. Best, -Ron Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_peter_m Posted March 17, 2007 Share #39 Posted March 17, 2007 Ron, Just the "developing" thank for hides is a bit larger Might just be a piece of cake doing film Got some odds and ends for film coming so I will find out soon. Thank you for the help. Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted March 17, 2007 Share #40 Posted March 17, 2007 Peter, stop bath and fixer are basically generic. You can use any with any film. Wetting agent is used in the final rinse of the film - use distilled or de-ionised water for this final rinse to prevent drying marks on your film. Drying marks are whitish areas left on the surface of the film is you live in an area of hard water. It's the same stuff that 'furs' up a kettle. I'm lucking in that I live in a soft water area, but I still have to use de-ionised water to prevent these marks. Only use about 4 or 5 drops of wetting agent per film. It's all that's required and a small bottle will last you years. You can find a guide to developing film here... http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/200629163442455.pdf It mentions Ilford films, but the basic steps apply to any film. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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