pop Posted August 29, 2012 Share #61 Posted August 29, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) ... To some people, the image quality improvement between a 50 cron and a 50 APO cron is not worth another $5K. For those who just want one, fair enough, but for those who claim it matters to their images, pull the other one. ... This agrees with my assessment. However, in your preceding post you called the price for the more expensive one "absurd" which is "patronising" towards those customers who feel they need one. My standing in that matter is simple: the quality of my current set of lenses is already above my capabiilites and needs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 29, 2012 Posted August 29, 2012 Hi pop, Take a look here What will the M10 Cost . I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
batmobile Posted August 29, 2012 Share #62 Posted August 29, 2012 I do see it that way: those who really think they need a 50 APO Cron either are misguided or involved in a form of photography which has needs I cannot comprehend. I'd love to hear their arguments and to see their photos. Those who plain want one need no justification at all. I can absolutely see why people might desire such a lens and I think Leica's pricing reflects a desire to see how deep that well of desire is, rather than build cost. After all, they knew they could not make such a lens price competitive for the small increase in performance (they made statements to this affect years ago) and so presumably priced it into the stratosphere because, well, why not? I just hope that mentality does not creep into the M10 pricing, because it will mean the end of Leica Ms as tools for many of those who buy them with this in mind. Maybe with margins as they are, Leica makes twice as much profit by whacking another $1000 onto the price - I don't know - and this might mean they only need to make half as many. From a business sense it makes sense, but it hardly puts cameras into the hands of photographers and I've been hoping against hope that Leica might move back in that direction. The only upside to Leica pricing is that my kit is worth more than when I bought it, so I can move systems very easily. Hopefully it wont come to that. This agrees with my assessment. However, in your preceding post you called the price for the more expensive one "absurd" which is "patronising" towards those customers who feel they need one. My standing in that matter is simple: the quality of my current set of lenses is already above my capabiilites and needs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted August 29, 2012 Share #63 Posted August 29, 2012 Some people want simply the best and can afford it. Is it that difficult to understand? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted August 30, 2012 Share #64 Posted August 30, 2012 The price reduction of the M9 & M9-P tells us something about the pricing of whatever is released at Photokina, don't you think? I suspect the rumour about the continued production of the M9, or at least the M9-P is correct. My reasoning is that the Monochrom won't be a limited 500 production run, as it seems like there are more than 500 orders. Why stop? So, if the Monochrom is to continue, how hard is it to continue the M9-P? If that was your strategy, you'd reduce the price ... You would also reduce the price to make room for the M10. If there's no M10, no reason to reduce the price - simple really. So, I'd put the M10 somewhere around $9,000. That leaves the line up like this - S2, M10, M9-P/MM, X2 The S3 at any price is not going to make a difference to that line up - it will still be stratospheric. What's interesting is the gap between the X2 and the M9-P/MM. What will the Gap Filler be? Leica (Stephan Daniels?) has already indicated that they need to fill that space (priced roughly between $3,000 and $6,000). Steve Huff was posting that the X2 has been a slow mover (based on what, God knows). So, new pricing will be M10 at $9,000 and the ME or whatever it's called at $4,500, with the M9 based cameras sitting in the middle for those wanting a traditional style CCD based M camera. The M10 will be CMOS, all singing, all dancing, state of the art camera that I will have zero interest in (he says bravely). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
batmobile Posted August 30, 2012 Share #65 Posted August 30, 2012 Absolutely not. This falls under the category of 'I want one and can afford one, so I will buy one'. The point I am making is that when that threshold is at $7K for a 50mm F2 and there are plenty of takers, then it is time to be very worried about future pricing. Leica is a luxury brand, sure, but it is becoming a boutique brand at that is worrying for those who buy them as (albeit expensive) tools. My beef is with Leica, which is driving their products ever further away from the people who use them for serious photography, like photojournalists and other professional image makers. Some people want simply the best and can afford it. Is it that difficult to understand? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted August 30, 2012 Share #66 Posted August 30, 2012 Photokina will be especially interesting from a Leica users point of view this year. I don't want to turn this into another M8 thread, but as M8's fail and are disposed of, it leaves the M9 as the lowest cost entry point for digital M photography. The M10 is almost certainly going to cost more again. Secondhand M8's had reached the level where pretty much any serious photographer could afford one. The leap to a secondhand M9 is quite large, and prohibitive for many. Unless Leica come up with some kind of more affordable M mount camera (the EVIL that is often talked about) then they really are moving the brand up to a level beyond the reach of many of their traditional customers. People like me will continue to use their film Leica gear of course, but I feel they really will be limiting sales of newer models to very wealthy amateurs and the odd pro. Some pro photographers took to the M8 and more so to the M9, but if the costs keep spiralling they will also restrict that market too. The S2 has hardly set the world alight, the majority being sold to....wealthy amateurs. There we much angst in this forum when Leica were releasing more and more Hermes cameras, but they seem to be heading that way again. There seem to be plenty of willing customers to buy Leica equipment at any price. I'm sure they will sell as many new Summicron APO's as they can make. But it's a strategy that would appear at odds with the involvement of Blackstone and their desire to grow the Leica market share. So, I'm hoping Leica have something to show at Photokina other than an M10. I doubt it will be cheap, but it should, must, be affordable, and I'm not talking about another X type camera or PanaLeica. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted August 30, 2012 Share #67 Posted August 30, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) Why a boutique brand? Would you say this about Ferrari? It is not because we can purchase Ferrari watches and other goodies that it's become a boutique brand is it. And it is not as if we had no choice at Leica's. We can still purchase excellent affordable lenses like the regular Summicron and the four Summarits can't we. And suberb lenses like the Elmarit 28/2.8 asph and the Elmar 24/3.8 are not out of reach fortunately. Those are not cheap products for sure but they have never been and will never be. We should congratulate Leica for providing products of excellence instead of complaining again and again for whatever reason. We have all rights to complain when something goes wrong like the M8 LCD problem for instance. But certainly not when Leica makes the best products in the world IMHO. Absolutely not. This falls under the category of 'I want one and can afford one, so I will buy one'. The point I am making is that when that threshold is at $7K for a 50mm F2 and there are plenty of takers, then it is time to be very worried about future pricing. Leica is a luxury brand, sure, but it is becoming a boutique brand at that is worrying for those who buy them as (albeit expensive) tools. My beef is with Leica, which is driving their products ever further away from the people who use them for serious photography, like photojournalists and other professional image makers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkP Posted August 30, 2012 Share #68 Posted August 30, 2012 Oh please: we all know what Lux and Cron means. Surely there are more important things to carry on about. Having said that there isn't an abbreviation for Elmarit or Summarit ('rit) that really works but I'm waiting! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
farnz Posted August 30, 2012 Share #69 Posted August 30, 2012 Which: Summilux or Noctilux? Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
batmobile Posted August 30, 2012 Share #70 Posted August 30, 2012 Which 'more affordable' interchangeable lens digital cameras are you referring to, because we need bodies to put the lenses on!? Unless I have missed something, we can choose between a $7-8K M9/M9-P and an $18K S2. I am glad you mentioned the Summarits, because I own two of them, but they have no comparable digital camera platform (yet). There is another point here: lenses last for a lifetime and so they tend to be one off purchases. Digital camera bodies don't and their value plummets. Judging by the diminishing support for the M8, five years looks to be a reasonable estimate for a professional user of cameras. If you want to shoot Leica professionally as your main system, you are looking at nothing less than a $20K for a 3 lens Summarit + two camera kit. With a four lens kit and some faster glass you can easily make that $30K. Oh, and in five years when you replace your two bodies, it will be another $16K (give or take). For people who make money from the sale of photos, especially street/documentary/reportage - i.e. the very origins of Leica - it is often prohibitive. For commercial photographers making money in the studio, or on location, using single Leica bodies and a lens or two on the side of their main kit, it is not such a financial burden. And they earn more I love Leica. I shoot Leica all over the world, but that has all been film. Leica digital might prove completely unaffordable for me and the point I have been making (I think fairly clearly) is that the direction Leica seems to be taking may result in me being unable to continue my relationship with the brand for my digital work. I have actually held off digital for a long time, largely because I love working with film Leica cameras (and silver prints) so much, but I need to bring on board a full street/documentary/reportage digital capability and I feel very sad that I might not be able to continue the relationship with Leica. ... And it is not as if we had no choice at Leica's. We can still purchase excellent affordable lenses like the regular Summicron and the four Summarits can't we..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted August 30, 2012 Share #71 Posted August 30, 2012 Fiat makes very good cars as well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted August 30, 2012 Share #72 Posted August 30, 2012 Oh please: we all know what Lux and Cron means. Surely there are more important things to carry on about. I rather think that the forum should serve new members at least as well as the long-time users. Using undocumented abbreviations and slang is a rather severe barrier to understanding. Newbies may not find it all that obvious what "Summarits", "Summicrons", "Noctiluxes" and "Summiluxes" are, even in the absence of ambiguous abbreviations. Surely you won't object if more people will be able to profit from your informed and hopefully useful statements here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted August 30, 2012 Share #73 Posted August 30, 2012 Fiat makes very good cars as well. Yes, they do, in particular the Fiat Lux. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted August 30, 2012 Share #74 Posted August 30, 2012 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicanut2 Posted August 30, 2012 Share #75 Posted August 30, 2012 I just want to say I still lurk around the forum now and then even though I have sold every last leica camera and lens. Leica has become a brand that is for the most part for the pro photographer not the retired old guy on a fixed income. I have sold a few pics threw the years to strangers but mostly I gave away 8 by 10.s just because I was honored that someone like it and wanted a picture from me. So for me I don,t think I will be doing any system that cost as much ( with a few lenses ) as new car costs. But I still like the Leica brand and may get one more D-Lux or other camera that they may come out with if it is in my price range. Now and then it is fun for me to go threw my folder of 8 x 10.s of pics taken with my long list of leica M and R8 cameras and lenses from years gone bye. Cheers to all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
batmobile Posted August 30, 2012 Share #76 Posted August 30, 2012 How utterly obnoxious, but at the same time, thank you for making yourself, and by extension your perspectives, so clear. I am glad you get such a kick out of being able to afford the 'Ferraris' of the camera world (who wouldn't) but attempting to ridicule those who find it more difficult is another matter. Unfortunately, photography is about 'the image' to me and cameras are just tools. Sadly, I have to settle for seeing my work hanging in Getty Gallery and being auctioned by Christies. Leica M9 = $7000 Dignity = Priceless Fiat makes very good cars as well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkP Posted August 30, 2012 Share #77 Posted August 30, 2012 Which: Summilux or Noctilux? Pete. OK, OK:rolleyes: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkP Posted August 30, 2012 Share #78 Posted August 30, 2012 [quote name=pop;2165214 Surely you won't object if more people will be able to profit from your informed and hopefully useful statements here. I made it absolutely clear that I don't use these terms myself' date=' and I didn't particularly like abbreviations for Summarit or Elmarit (ie 'rit), so people will not have any problems profiting from my informed and hopefully useful statements here (oh, was that sarcasm?). However, I also don't feel the need to dump on those who want to use 'Lux & 'Cron as the meaning is usually obvious in context. Move on... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted August 30, 2012 Share #79 Posted August 30, 2012 the meaning is usually obvious in context. Obvious to insiders maybe, but not quite as much for newcomers. All these abbreviations (and not just those for Leica lenses) work to draw a virtual line between the in-crowd and the outsiders. Don’t get what we are talking about? Evidently you’re not one of us. I have said this before but it bears repetition: Whatever you you write is written once but hopefully read many times. So which effort should be minimised, that of writing or that of comprehension? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkP Posted August 30, 2012 Share #80 Posted August 30, 2012 In relation to the other dispute above, the cost of Leica. I think that the Summarits (not 'rits) should have been described as 'more affordable' rather than affordable. By any standard that the Summarits are still very expensive lenses, even compared to Zeiss and CV, and especially compared to CaNikons etc. Some of us non-professionals (myself included) are in the lucky position of being able to indulge in our hobby by earn a reasonable income elsewhere and can indulge ourselves. Having said that I used my 25 year old F3/T and AIS primes until finally buying my first Leica two years ago. I had wanted a Leica all my life but previously could just not justify the cost. I am not at all being patronising, but serious, when I say that I have often thought how unfortunate it is that many photographers (professional and amateur) who could really bring out their best with some of the top-end Leica equipment just can't afford it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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