johnloumiles Posted June 16, 2012 Share #1  Posted June 16, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) After shooting the VC 21mm Skopar for a couple months on and off I have come to the conclusion my copy is not made for digital sensors. I know it has been said by some that the 12 and 15 VC Heliar should only be used on film bodies but I've seen plenty of people use those lenses successfully on digital.  Basically the 21 constantly underexposes and is very difficult to balance the exposure in bright conditions. Pulling exposure or overexposing in camera to save the shot leaves mixed to bad results. On the M6 this lens is a little champion and I love the results so it will always have a home with me for that reason but I definitely was hoping to use it on my M8 as well. Has anyone had the same experience with this lens? Below is an untouched photo where the in camera meter gave correct exposure. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/181920-21mm-skopar-bad-on-digital/?do=findComment&comment=2041740'>More sharing options...
garysamson Posted June 16, 2012 Share #2 Â Posted June 16, 2012 This is not my experience at all with this lens on my M8. Are you using the histogram to determine the proper exposure? Shooting raw files and using Corner Fix software allows me to produce very fine images from a lens that costs so little compared to the Leitz products. This lens has a fine reputation and many use it on the digital M's. Don't give up! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
01af Posted June 16, 2012 Share #3  Posted June 16, 2012 Basically the 21 constantly underexposes and is very difficult to balance the exposure in bright conditions. [...] Below is an untouched photo where the in camera meter gave correct exposure. Where's the problem? The specular highlight at the frame's center pulls exposure down—which is perfectly natural to happen with any TTL-metering camera in a situation like this. It has nothing to do with the lens being a Voigtländer Skopar or 21 mm or with the camera being digital.  Pull the shadows up in post-processing, and you'll get a fine picture. If the exposure was any higher then the picture would be unusable due to over-exposure. Don't expect digital shots of high-contrast scenes to look good right out of the camera; they are supposed to look dark and will always need some massaging in post-processing.  As far as I can tell, the Voigtländer Skopar 21 mm is just fine for use on a digital M camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomB_tx Posted June 17, 2012 Share #4 Â Posted June 17, 2012 Agreed - the metering area when using a 21 covers a lot of area, and you must meter more carefully. However, I've had great results with my 21 Skopar on M9. Coded as 21 2.8 the results are very usable without Cornerfix for most pictures. I don't use a 21 enough to justify anything more expensive. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
farnz Posted June 17, 2012 Share #5 Â Posted June 17, 2012 I agree with Olaf about the specular highlight causing underexposure but I do notice that there is strong vignetting: even the right hand corner of the car's bonnet (hood) has turned from white to grey. Â Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rramesh Posted June 17, 2012 Share #6 Â Posted June 17, 2012 I am quite satisfied with my 21 Color Skopar. It does not require corner fix with the new M9 firmware update though it does require the occasional post-processing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raul Posted June 17, 2012 Share #7 Â Posted June 17, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hi guys, apologies for butting in... Just want to know if i can attach this lens directly to the m9 without any sort of adapter... Â Btw, would agree with the others about metering. In this particular case, center weighted and a lot of area with bright highlights on the hood will affect the reading. Â That's a great photograph though regardless. Have you tried adjusting the exposure in post? I wonder how it's going to look like. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
farnz Posted June 17, 2012 Share #8 Â Posted June 17, 2012 Raul, Â The 21/4 Color Skopar was produced in both versions: LTM (Leica Thread Mount) and M-mount. If you have or get the M-mount version then it can be used on the M9 without an adaptor. If it's the LTM version (there is only a 39 mm diameter brass thread on the rear flange) then you can still use it with an M9 but you'd need to use a LTM to M adaptor. Â Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnloumiles Posted June 17, 2012 Author Share #9  Posted June 17, 2012 Thanks for the feedback. Please trust though I would not be bothering you with one or two underexposed photos. I'm talking about every single photo that comes out of the lens that is shot in daylight on a M8. I have bracketed exposure countless times and finding any kind of sweet spot is very difficult. Put it on an M6...not one problem..smooth exposure throughout.  Olaf - as I stated previously I can pull out the shadows but it doesnt lend itself to smooth tonal ranges. This particular group of images was shot from multiple directions so it is not a matter of having the sun in the wrong place. I mean we all deal with under/over exposure from time to time but I've been doing this long enough to know the difference between normal and not normal even for a wide lens.  I mean it is what it is, I'll just use it on the M6 I was just wondering if anyone else had a similar experience. I've shot with a variety of lenses on the M and the only thing close to this is the 90mm Elmar which tends to overexpose if not manually adjusted. Thanks again for letting me know your experiences.  Here is a before and after. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/181920-21mm-skopar-bad-on-digital/?do=findComment&comment=2041850'>More sharing options...
Raul Posted June 17, 2012 Share #10 Â Posted June 17, 2012 Thanks, Pete! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bocaburger Posted June 17, 2012 Share #11 Â Posted June 17, 2012 I've had the LTM version since it first came out, used it on film bodies, then the M8, and now the M9. On the latter, with firmware 1.162 (I have no reason to update and don't want write speeds to bog down) and coded as a 21 Elmarit pre-Asph, I have no issues with exposure nor red-edge even at ISO 2500 as long as the image isn't underexposed. I recently picked up a used M-mount version and it is the same. That said, I recall speaking with someone a long time ago whose copy of the LTM version vignetted severely, to the point where he found the lens unusable. So there is a possibility of sample variation, but that would not explain why it would act differently with film and digital Ms. Furthermore, logic would say any issues related to corner falloff would be less on an M8 due to the cropping. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnum Image Posted June 17, 2012 Share #12 Â Posted June 17, 2012 F Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
el.nino Posted June 17, 2012 Share #13 Â Posted June 17, 2012 Thanks for the feedback. Please trust though I would not be bothering you with one or two underexposed photos. I'm talking about every single photo that comes out of the lens that is shot in daylight on a M8. I have bracketed exposure countless times and finding any kind of sweet spot is very difficult. Put it on an M6...not one problem..smooth exposure throughout. Â . Â Dude, just learn how to meter light! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted June 17, 2012 Share #14  Posted June 17, 2012 JohnLou - what film and processing regime are you using with the M6? Color negs and a lab? Slides? B&W film and roll-your-own prints?  I would note that I ran an "average" filter over the M8 metering area on one of your shots, and it did come out darker than expected - 69% gray rather than 50%. So not only is the big expanse of white car dropping the exposure (which should result in 50% gray, and thus an underexposure for all that white) but the camera meter itself is about 1/2 stop below that. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/181920-21mm-skopar-bad-on-digital/?do=findComment&comment=2041865'>More sharing options...
WestMichigan Posted June 17, 2012 Share #15 Â Posted June 17, 2012 Hello, I would like to ask a couple of questions which are kind of basic and I hope they are received in the sincerely helpful way they are meant, but might help suss out some alternative answers than to afix all of the blame on the lens for the exposure issues. A) do you have other lenses that are shot both on your M6 and your M8? If so, does the meter behave identically between cameras? Have you checked to make sure you haven't forgotten to dial out an exposure compensation setting in one of the menus? C) did you shoot this white car in bright sunshine with M6 at the same time and if so how did it do exposure wise? D) how much experience do you have with 'simple' center weighted ttl metering systems? Being an M6 owner I suspect you do, but assumptions are the shortest route to mistakes being made in my experience, anyway. E) what kind of film are you shooting with the 21 Skopar in the M6 because if it's negative film then it is quite easy for even moderate exposure misses to be camoflauged by modern high tech emulsions (especially color neg) and then the great equalizer called the printing process can hide missed exposures, especially if you're not the one handling every step of the development and printing of the images. Sincerely Richard Ward Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted June 17, 2012 Share #16  Posted June 17, 2012 Yes its white car syndrome, or any higher value area you are metering from, and with a 21mm lens that could be sky in a typical landscape shot. Meter instead from the grey tarmac, or from a patch of grass, then compose. I think there is also an element of post processing which is going wrong and which may account for the lack of smooth tonal values complained about. Here is another take on the pp from your JPEG, but there is some weird blue colouring on front of the car from your original. With a bigger master file much more could be done.    Steve Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/181920-21mm-skopar-bad-on-digital/?do=findComment&comment=2041900'>More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted June 17, 2012 Share #17 Â Posted June 17, 2012 It's bad metering technique. A lens by itself doesn't cause under exposure. Not understanding the relationship between the subject and the camera's metering can. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted June 17, 2012 Share #18  Posted June 17, 2012 And the first untouched image redone with some pp showing there is still a lot of detail to pull out. The deep shadows are tricky, but with a big file they shouldn't be a problem to sort out. Although the first image is much too dark a darker file out of the camera could be expected if you intentionally metered to keep as much detail in the white car as possible, and then you would pull the rest up in pp. But I think with the original exposure there is still a long way to go before you lost detail in the whites. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/181920-21mm-skopar-bad-on-digital/?do=findComment&comment=2041922'>More sharing options...
Paul Verrips Posted June 17, 2012 Share #19 Â Posted June 17, 2012 Test your 21mm Skopar on both cameras with the same subject at the same time. That wil give you the right answer and rule out any risk of bad metering in the photo shown. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
01af Posted June 17, 2012 Share #20  Posted June 17, 2012 Well—getting TTL metering right with wide-angle lenses generally is more difficult than with standard or telephoto lenses. This is true, to varying degrees, with virtually any TTL-metering camera. I guess it has to do with the exit pupil being small and close to the metering cell. But then, why is the issue absent in your M6? No idea ... maybe it isn't really absent but just less obvious. Maybe tolerances of the camera's light meter calibration and the film's latitude are adding up in another way than in your M8.  Anyway—the issue is not specific to the Voigtländer Skopar lens. With any other 21 mm lens of similar speed you're going to have the same problem. (Faster lenses seem to be more accurately metered, even when metering happens at working aperture; don't ask me why.) I don't see any issue in your pictures that couldn't get cured through a slightly more generous exposure. Simply add half an f-stop (in back-lit situations) or one full f-stop (in front-lit situations) to the metering when using the 21 mm on the M8 in high-contrast lighting conditions. You may want to try carrying an external hand-held light meter for a while, to see under which conditions exactly your cameras are metering reliably and when not. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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