M9 on tripod - bottom part broken anyone else ?

[scott kirkpatrick]

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If someone needs to reformat a whole bunch of cards or operate for some other reason with the base plate removed (tethered shooting, for example, with external power) just arrange something that pushes in the little square pin next to the battery retaining lever. The camera starts up just fine.

 

I don't find the traditional base plate particularly silly. It's just a belt and suspenders approach to maintaining a weather tight cover over the battery and card positions when the camera layout puts these at opposite ends of the camera.

 

scott

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[photolandscape]

Thank you for posting that warning, Bill. This is a particularly disturbing failure since that base plate has the same functional design mission as a tit on a bull.

 

Ken, don't know that I would put it in exactly those terms, but I agree with your point. The baseplate strikes me as being little more than a link to the M-series' past. I'd be a lot more effective shooting in the field if I simple had to push a button on the bottom of the camera, open a little door to change my battery or card, and get on with the business at hand. The baseplate is just one more thing to try to hold and manipulate and to try not to drop. I hope that when/if an M9 comes out, the baseplate will be history. I have had an M4, and a couple of M6's, so I feel I have some fair and balanced perspective on this issue.

[AlanG]

But isn't this part even weaker than the magnesium outer shell? I don't have an M8 to hand but I seem to remember the inner part is a simple plastic moulding.

 

I don't mean to imply that Leica could just clamp the base anywhere they like. They surely have to anchor an attachment lip to the body in some manner. Whether that is straight down or a piece of metal that bridges the two sides of the case, wherever. But I don't think it is a good solution to try to secure it to the thin metal part of the housing for reasons that are obvious now. And getting the locking collar to engage with the body closer to the tripod screw can't be a bad idea. I've enclosed one of Mark Norton's shots to show where they might be able to build something that could serve as an anchor for the locking collar. (I could be completely wrong for sure and maybe they can just re-enfoce the current design if necessary.)

 

I am not an engineer nor do I know anything about metallurgy. It could be that this is just a single isolated case where there was an odd defect in either the metal casing, the clamp pressure, how it was used, or a combination of factors. (As we've all discussed.) It would be pretty easy to test the breaking point if someone didn't mind damaging a camera. But simple observation of how it broke would lead anyone to see that this part of the case may be a weak point and certainly is not over engineered for rugged use. Time will tell how widespread the problem is.

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[billh]

@Billh

 

Would you be so kind as to state the serial number (or at least the first four numbers) of your camera?

 

 

Horacio

 

It is 3102768. However, this is the second camera with that serial number (the first one failed and Leica took the hot shot with the serial number from the origional failed M8 and put it on the replacement camera, which arrived in December).

[billh]

Alan, how did you get that picture? Did you take one apart?

[AlanG]

Alan, how did you get that picture? Did you take one apart?

 

I attributed it to Mark Norton. he took one apart. (I am not that brave or confident.) Actually, I don't think any of us would have too much trouble taking one apart. That's the easy part.

[sean_reid]

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I called Leica about this yesterday and spoke with them for awhile. My contact at Leica USA called me today to let me know two things:

 

1) This is the only case of an M8 breaking in this way that has been reported to them.

 

2) They have tried to replicate the failure in Germany (yesterday, I presume) and cannot.

 

I can say, again, that I've used multiple M8 bodies and, because of my testing, am *constantly* taking the base plate on and off, constantly using tripods, etc. and I haven't experienced the problem.

 

My one caution would be that (as someone mentioned earlier in this thread) we should be careful about tightening the bottom plate lock if the plate is not fully seated (ie: the tab is not in the slot). That may have nothing to do with Bill's camera failure but I think its a good practice in any case.

 

I myself, however, am not at all concerned about using the camera on a tripod.

 

I imagine Leica will take care of Bill.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[Guest kissov]

Lets hope this failure is unique. I would think the Leica handgrip baseplate would create stress on the same area. There must be a number of those out there.

[marknorton]

Mark Norton,

From the lower right hand corner of your disassembly photo Shutter wind 2 jpg it looks as if there is a difference in metal between the rest of the body and where the latch-lip is attached. The rest of the body looks black, but at the attachment point it is silver. Can you tell us how the latch-lip is attached to the body or if is it actually part of the body? The little screws seem to hold the brass in place but not the entire lip.

 

Thanks, as always,

Joe

 

The black lip is an integral part of the front casting and the brass plate would seem to be more to do with providing a surface which is more suited to the wear of the latch sliding over it.

 

As Sean Reid's latest post indicates, this appears to be a problem with one particular casting. Let's hope so!

[Bill W]

Not owning one of the handgrips I would think this would also cause some added stress especially if there is any gap between the grip and the M8 body. I have used a tripod but only sparingly. I know that Guy uses both handgrips and tripods all the time so he might be a good test subject for wear and tear. I inspected my M8 closely and could not detect any problems with the area that failed on this particular M8. I hope everyone that has read this thread has also inspected theirs

[canlogic]

I use both baseplates, one with an arca plate for the tripod and one with the grip. They are constantly being changed back and forth and I don't treat them like porcelin. I also have mounted the camera onto the handlebars of my Harley softail useing a ram mount and I don't see any problems. (Only tried the handle bar thing once and it was behind the windshield)

[sean_reid]

Not owning one of the handgrips I would think this would also cause some added stress especially if there is any gap between the grip and the M8 body. I have used a tripod but only sparingly. I know that Guy uses both handgrips and tripods all the time so he might be a good test subject for wear and tear. I inspected my M8 closely and could not detect any problems with the area that failed on this particular M8. I hope everyone that has read this thread has also inspected theirs

 

I have a hand grip on the M8s almost all the time and so I also am one who has used it, since Oct., with both.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[wparsonsgisnet]

Well, there is a gap between the grip and the body. I ordered the grip with the M8 and it has been on the body 100% of it's working life. It's even on the body when the camera isn't working.

 

I just flexed it and it gives a little, but not enuf for the top of the grip to hit the body. When the camera is tripoded, I remove the camera to change batteries and cards, leaving the grip plate attached to the tripod, and replacing the body on this assembly.

 

As it happens, this actually helps make sure that the little button is in the hole at the end of the plate away from the fastener.

 

Just for the record, looking at the pic of an M6 or -7 somewhere above, the end of the film M has to be a single piece because of the trap door in the middle of the back side.

 

What's really important for all of us is to make sure that this kind of metal fatigue doesn't happen to our cars.

 

After reading the start of this thread I checked to see if the M8 would still work if the plate could not be latched. If the plate is on the M8 without being latched, the camera works properly. We could just tie it together to finish the studio shoot. [Note: not intended to trivialize the situation regarding Bill's loss, but to show that the thing still works even when broken in this particular fashion]

[billh]

I sent it back today, along with the 50f1.4ASPH and an order for the 28mm Summicron (30% deal), and asked to have both lenses and the camera they send checked for proper focus. The 50 has backfocused on both M8s, while the APO75 is spot on. Most of the other lenses back focus on this camera too.

 

I was still equivocating over the 28 Summicron (I have the 28f2.8ASPH) vs the 24f2.8, but chose the 28 f2.0 because I am normally using the camera inside or in lower light situations, and it is one stop faster than the 24. Also, i did not want to pass up a chance to have the lens focusing accurately on the M8.

 

Bill

[Philinflash]

...If they're going to put a useless baseplate on the camera, why not make it bulletproof? Esp since they don't need to make room for film transport or much of anything at all down there on the bottom.

 

In fairness to Leica, you cannot legitimately say the baseplate is "useless." At the least, it protects the battery and the memory card and the compartments in which they reside. If there were no baseplate, you would have batteries and SD cards falling out of the bottom of the camera body all the time. It may not be, however, robust enough to withstand the use that Leica should expect from the camera's users and that should be fixed.

[Ludwig der 13te]

I use my M8 since Nov 2006

I open and close the baseplate twice a day

it still works perfect

 

I`ll never use a tripod - for shure ..........

 

cheers

Ludwig

[wlaidlaw]

In fairness to Leica, you cannot legitimately say the baseplate is "useless." At the least, it protects the battery and the memory card and the compartments in which they reside. If there were no baseplate, you would have batteries and SD cards falling out of the bottom of the camera body all the time. It may not be, however, robust enough to withstand the use that Leica should expect from the camera's users and that should be fixed.

 

Given that they decided to have the SD card and battery accessible from the bottom of the camera, a removable base was one possible design consequence. However, which came first in the design process. I suspect it was the removable base. It would have been a simple alternative to have a fixed base plate, which would have stiffened up the whole of the camera, just like a fixed roof car is always stiffer in beam and torsion than a convertible. They could then have had a small hinged access door, with moulded 'O' ring sealing, in the middle of the base plate like most digital cameras do, for access to the battery and SD card. After all it's not as if they had to get a big CF card out. If they wanted, this could have had the traditional turn latch to give it the 'M' feel.

 

After Leica decided that a removable base was an attractive legacy design feature, they then made a very basic engineering/design error. You NEVER have a stress concentration point close to an unsupported edge. You can easily tear a piece of cloth starting at an edge but few people could tear it starting in the middle. In this case it is even worse in that the latch brass strip is fastened to an area which has two unsupported edges, the join between the clamshell halves and the open bottom edge. This is just asking for stress fatigue failure, especially on a material which is notorious for brittle fractures, die cast magnesium alloy.

 

Wilson

[Philinflash]

Given that they decided to have the SD card and battery accessible from the bottom of the camera, a removable base was one possible design consequence. However, which came first in the design process. I suspect it was the removable base. It would have been a simple alternative to have a fixed base plate, which would have stiffened up the whole of the camera, just like a fixed roof car is always stiffer in beam and torsion than a convertible. They could then have had a small hinged access door, with moulded 'O' ring sealing, in the middle of the base plate like most digital cameras do, for access to the battery and SD card. After all it's not as if they had to get a big CF card out. If they wanted, this could have had the traditional turn latch to give it the 'M' feel.

 

After Leica decided that a removable base was an attractive legacy design feature, they then made a very basic engineering/design error. You NEVER have a stress concentration point close to an unsupported edge. You can easily tear a piece of cloth starting at an edge but few people could tear it starting in the middle. In this case it is even worse in that the latch brass strip is fastened to an area which has two unsupported edges, the join between the clamshell halves and the open bottom edge. This is just asking for stress fatigue failure, especially on a material which is notorious for brittle fractures, die cast magnesium alloy.

 

Wilson

 

Wilson, I hope you are in France this weekend; the weather here in London sucks! Hence, the time to post to the Forum.

 

You make several fair points above. I would add that, ceterus paribus, I always want my tripod socket firmly part of the core body structure, unlike being part of a removable sheet metal fabrication add-on as in the M8.

 

But, at the end of the day, a product like this is a portfolio of engineering compromises. I would guess there was a fair amount of deliberation on these and many other points that had to be resolved by the design team. Overall, they seem to have got it right judging from the way the camera seems to be selling and the generally favourable response that it gets from LUFies.

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[wlaidlaw]

Wilson, I hope you are in France this weekend; the weather here in London sucks! Hence, the time to post to the Forum.

 

Phillip,

 

I regret I am in Sussex sitting inside at my Powermac, watching the drizzle drifting down. It is not a lot better in France today however. It would be nice to get out with the M8 and take some photos but I am afraid a) my arthritis does not like this weather and I am a fair weather photographer these days. I justify it by saying the light is too flat. At least my M8 base plate latch is not going through any fatigue cycles.

 

Wilson

[guidomo]

I think the meaning of the word "fatigue" should be emphasised again.

 

If something fails due to fatigue then that means it has failed due to having been stressed many times. People here seem to say "many Ms but just one failure, thus no problem". If however we are looking at a fatigue problem then it is more a matter of time rather than of having many samples. The number of cases may increase drastically as the first Ms (that get used with tripod and/or grip) get a bit older.

 

Just a comment on the statistics/probability side of things - I sure hope it is not an issue.