stevelap Posted December 8, 2011 Share #41 Posted December 8, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) ..................Otherwise, why pay what i think will be substantially more for the Leica EVIL than a NEX 5N or a NEX 7 or a GXR? Because it will be a Leica, not a Sony or Ricoh, of course:). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted December 8, 2011 Posted December 8, 2011 Hi stevelap, Take a look here Leica EVIL. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jaapv Posted December 8, 2011 Share #42 Posted December 8, 2011 I mean differentiation with other EVIL models by other brands in the market. The differentiation you are describing is with other Leica products, and I think it is not necessary. Complementarity and synergies is the key in the Leica portfolio. Price and general design of the product is enough differentiation in the catalogue. My point is this: the M system shouldn't pretend to be a "classic" system forever, because in the long term that would imply its demise. In order to survive, it needs to evolve. I am not saying the classical M camera has to disappear, but the system itself needs to get new customers and that means bodies with new features and lower prices. On the other hand, Leica needs a new platform (system if you like the term) for developing a new offering based on EVIL concept, the new paradigm. The M system is perfect for that, as a base of reference. I disagree. The only thing that has ensured the survival of the Leica M system is that it is "classic". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted December 8, 2011 Share #43 Posted December 8, 2011 ...why pay what i think will be substantially more for the Leica EVIL than a NEX 5N or a NEX 7 or a GXR? Because that EVIL would be a Leica of course but also because: - it would recognize automatically old and new 6-bit coded M lenses; - it would recognize automatically the ROM contacts of R lenses; - it would fit new AF lenses made by Leica or PanaLeica. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jankap Posted December 8, 2011 Share #44 Posted December 8, 2011 That would only be survival. That is a very low aim. Of course - for us users - it is interesting to see how a Summitar would perform on a Leica-EVIL. Leica aims at 1% market share, that is "eine ganz andere Kanne Bier". New customers can be won with quality, durability and innovation. Jan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
krabat Posted December 8, 2011 Share #45 Posted December 8, 2011 Not that the Digilux2 was a micro-4/3rds system camera.. And Leica dissociated itself quite firmly from the whole 4/3rds idea, after the resounding "success" of the Digilux3 I think the 4/3 format of the sensor was not the reason why the Digilux 3 was not such a success. It were the clumsy shape, the dark viewfinder and the hard-steering lens. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted December 8, 2011 Share #46 Posted December 8, 2011 It was a disappointment overall to Digilux2 owners. Clunky, mediocre sensor, second-rate viewfinder, an Olympus E 320 in drag with Panasonic overtones - no wonder it did not sell. However if used within its context - I use one professionally, it is quite a good camera after all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted December 8, 2011 Share #47 Posted December 8, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) Because that EVIL would be a Leica of course but also because:- it would recognize automatically old and new 6-bit coded M lenses; - it would recognize automatically the ROM contacts of R lenses; - it would fit new AF lenses made by Leica or PanaLeica. ... and this would be imho the "right" product... ... an EVIL that fits for both typical customers (M+R lenses - teles > 135 revived... many of us M users will consider this their "ideal 2nd body", not to speak of R users with many good lenses...) and new customers (a Leica camera with no indecently priced PanaLeica AF lenses - a good step-up for small-sensors users that want something more). APS-C or APS-H is a detail... not so important in practical terms (personally, I'd like 18x27 for M8 "equivalence") , maybe important in industrial/economical terms (they could charge something more for an APS-H, but not SO much... but as Michael said APS-C sensors are commodities, APS-H not the same... a delicate cost/revenue marginal budgeting) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jankap Posted December 8, 2011 Share #48 Posted December 8, 2011 Are there cameras besides Canon ones, that offer an APS-H sensor? Jan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted December 8, 2011 Share #49 Posted December 8, 2011 Yep, that's the question... but sensors' industry, in general, is fast moving on the development side... who knows ? Finding the right source, can be anyway a way to add a bit of "disinguish" for Leica... their strategic goal even if trying to braeden their market share... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted December 8, 2011 Share #50 Posted December 8, 2011 Perhaps it could be a dilemma to design this camera body? - The M lenses are top quality and Leica can't sell a EVIL that don't take fully advantage of the lenses? The camera/lens combo has to produce top IQ. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted December 8, 2011 Share #51 Posted December 8, 2011 The M8 manages very well M lenses actually, better so than the M9 due to the crop factor, so i don't see any difficulty in designing another crop camera as far as vignetting and color shift are concerned at least. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted December 9, 2011 Share #52 Posted December 9, 2011 I think the 4/3 format of the sensor was not the reason why the Digilux 3 was not such a success. It were the clumsy shape, the dark viewfinder and the hard-steering lens. Indeed. The Digilux 3 is huge, larger than the typical crop sensor DSLRs which offered as good or better IQ, wider choice of lenses, and were half the price. Not easy to see why it failed. I doubt that Leica are thinking too much about existing users in developing their EVIL camera. They want to sell a lot more cameras to a lot more people. They have new partners on board now too, who will also have their own ideas.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevelap Posted December 9, 2011 Share #53 Posted December 9, 2011 Are there cameras besides Canon ones, that offer an APS-H sensor?Jan The S35 (cinema) sensors of the RED Epic (30x15mm) and Arri Alexa (27.98x18.15mm) are close to APS-H (28.7x19mm), although because of different (cinema) aspect ratios and active areas they are not an exact match. Those companies don't make their own sensors though, so someone else must fab them. The point being that if a particular sized CMOS sensor is required it can be made to order, although at a greater cost than 'off the shelf' of course. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmradman Posted December 9, 2011 Share #54 Posted December 9, 2011 The S35 (cinema) sensors of the RED Epic (30x15mm) and Arri Alexa (27.98x18.15mm) are close to APS-H (28.7x19mm), although because of different (cinema) aspect ratios and active areas they are not an exact match. Those companies don't make their own sensors though, so someone else must fab them. The point being that if a particular sized CMOS sensor is required it can be made to order, although at a greater cost than 'off the shelf' of course. Everything can be made to order at the cost, anyone for a rocket to Mars? As a private purchase lets just say that tip of Leica user pool is able/willing to afford M9 costing £5K than camera body costing same as RED Epic/Arri ALEXA would be affordable to the tiny fraction of that same tip. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted December 9, 2011 Share #55 Posted December 9, 2011 Perhaps it could be a dilemma to design this camera body? - The M lenses are top quality and Leica can't sell a EVIL that don't take fully advantage of the lenses? The camera/lens combo has to produce top IQ. Roughly speaking (or... roughly designing in my mind... ) : if it would be an APS-C it could be no much bigger than a Nex, with the possibility to have more thickness (to say, more internal space) to play with... a thickness in the range of the one of a Nex to M adapter... and also some more in height... Scale in consequence should it be APS-H... generally speaking, having they proved to be able to make a very effective FF of about the classic M size, an fine APS can be made more compact... they could choose to follow the X1 styling (a good base) or to invent something new... less "blink to Barnack" than X1 but with some little detail of "Leica feel" (keeping care not to be confused with Fuij.... ) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan Muller Posted December 10, 2011 Share #56 Posted December 10, 2011 If Leica made a evil camera that could use M lenses directly or via an adapter they would instantly have a market....every M owner that secretly would love to have a backup camera with a normal or ' full frame ' viewfinder....even though it will be apsc. If you can afford the M system then the evil will be no problem budget wise, anther toy to add to the collection.... A leica evil will have the lenses that the competition doesn't have, good quality fast primes. The form factor will follow M and X, clean and simple, if not always logical and easy to use, iow 'pretty' cameras... Price will be what the market can bear, thus not cheap but cheaper than a M, good but not as good as a m... Will I buy one, well what will it do what the X cant do? apart from a bigger lens choice and faster af, but that's not why I bought the x.... So we will see.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlorianM Posted December 10, 2011 Share #57 Posted December 10, 2011 Another aspect of the sensor size debate is that with, APS-C, they would face some heavy competition from the NEX, the NX and the upcoming Fuji EVIL. All of these can take M glass just as well with an adaptor, so having the M mount itself is no advantage whatsoever. It would be very close to competing with the Japanese in the SLR/DSLR game. That's not what Leica is good at, and they know it. If the sensor were APS-H though, it would be a small but worthwhile difference, if not a game changer. There would be no direct competition, just like there isn't any for the M9. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted December 10, 2011 Share #58 Posted December 10, 2011 Another aspect of the sensor size debate is that with, APS-C, they would face some heavy competition from the NEX, the NX and the upcoming Fuji EVIL. All of these can take M glass just as well with an adaptor, so having the M mount itself is no advantage whatsoever... An APS Leica would have five advantages IMO: - would be a Leica camera - would have tailor-made sensor, firmware & hardware - would recognize automatically 6-bit coded M lenses - would recognize automatically ROM contacts of R lenses - would fit new AF lenses made by Leica or PanaLeica Did i say it already? Oops sorry. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jankap Posted December 10, 2011 Share #59 Posted December 10, 2011 Is it possible to realize these personal wishes AND land between X1 and M9 in $$$? I don't possess R-lenses and only have a minimal set of LTM-lenses. I would be interested in a kind of a Digilux-3, updated for EVIL and APS-C. New lenses with AF, my LTMs via adapter. Leica quality at costs interesting for a great circle of customers. Is it technically possible to add a 9/10 electrical contacts to the M-mount for AF, for auto f/stop, etc.? Is the M-mount the optimal ($$$) choice for APS-C? Would Leica eventually go for a foreign mount (E-mount)? Jan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmradman Posted December 10, 2011 Share #60 Posted December 10, 2011 If Leica read this thread for inspiration 99.999% goes into bin, nevertheless keep the good work guys. Comes next Photokina don't be surprised if all we see is lizard skin special edition "name current model". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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