eleskin Posted July 17, 2011 Share #21 Posted July 17, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) Maybe the M10 should have a hybrid viewfinder where one can flip a switch and use EVF to focus off center. Even if it is not an M10, maybe another future camera. I would imagine the M module and Ricoh GXR would do wonders for those of us who use the Noctilux and other wide lenses. One lens that I like wide and have used with great success is the Voigtlander 35mm F1.2 Nokton. It is wide enough for some depth of field. Great when you focus and shift to off center. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 17, 2011 Posted July 17, 2011 Hi eleskin, Take a look here Focus recompose at f/0.95. (MERGED). I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
mongrelnomad Posted July 17, 2011 Share #22 Posted July 17, 2011 OK. Maybe I'll try and give some constructive criticism I find that focusing with my ultra-fast lenses is always a challenge (and by ultra-fast, I mean f1.0 and f0.95). I have found two systems that work. I find that the best way to work is to stop trying to focus what is; rather, focus yourself. What do I mean? Pre-set the focus on a distance relatively close to your desired subject, and then move yourself into position where the desired focus-points in the patch overlap. Rocking forward and back usually manages this very very quickly; for further distances, feet tend to work faster than fingers. Failing this, pre-focus. If you start seeing the world in 'planes', you can find something that is higher in contrast and a similar distance from the lense than your desired subject. Wait for it to come into the 'zone' and then click... Should you care, here's some of my Noctilux photos... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Geschlecht Posted July 17, 2011 Share #23 Posted July 17, 2011 Hello Lord Fluff, Thank you for reading my Post. I would like to clarify some points I think you may have misunderstood when you read it. I never said An M was designed to focus, reframe & shoot. That would be a silly thing for anyone to say. There is no reason for anyone to think they can focus on & photograph object "A" , recompose around object "B" & expect the subsequent photo of "B" previously focussed on "A" to be in focus. It is understood that while reframing you have to refocus for "B". What I did say & what I stand by is: M cameras were specifically designed so a person working w/ an M who has photographed a subject can more easily & more rapidly reframe & shoot a subsequent subject somewhere else w/ a hi-speed lens more accurately & more easily than w/ other types of cameras. The ability to rapidly reconfigure for a new situation especially w/ wide aperture lenses is what M's were designed for & excell @. Please re-read my Post. Best Regards, Michael Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Fluff Posted July 17, 2011 Share #24 Posted July 17, 2011 My feeling Michael is that you have misunderstood the whole point of this thread. This is not about subsequent shots of different subjects - it is about wanting to focus on a subject, but not end up with it placed centrally when you fire the shutter. This is generally called "focus-recompose", and with it come issues around shifts in the focal plane - I suggest you read the link I posted. Please re-read the whole thread and you will see that you personally are talking about an entirely different matter, that of general speed of use. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 17, 2011 Share #25 Posted July 17, 2011 The focus-recompose geometry problem has been common knowledge for a long, long time. There is just one real solution - experience to compensate for the effect. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Geschlecht Posted July 17, 2011 Share #26 Posted July 17, 2011 Hello Again Lord Fluff, I took your advice & re-read bbbonthemoon & my response in Post #3. I stand by what I said. I think my response was both appropriate & accurate. I think it is a good soloution to the problem. Please note: Leica M's do require a degree of facility on the part of their operators as well as a degree of judgement. Part of the trade offs involved w/ having a somewhat minimalist photographic system. I also stand by what I said in terms of my response to your interpertation of my remarks. There is no pretension by any range/viewfinder user/s that a person can focus on 1 thing & then compose somewhere else & reasonably expect to have that susequent composition in focus. Best Regards, Michael Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
EJohnE Posted July 18, 2011 Share #27 Posted July 18, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hello Steve, Perhaps the Achillies Heel is to some extent the lack of practice, over-reliance on technology & the therfore lessening of thought about & input into what potential situations might arise & how to deal w/ them. A lot of sucessful hunters do both target practice & dry fire practice when they are not out hunting. Best Regards, Michael Absolutely. Soon you will (should) know whether to lean slightly forward or back to compensate. A rangefinder camera has only about 1/30 sec. between shutter release press and the shutter firing. Only a fraction of a second should pass between focus and shooting. If you need more time, use a DSLR or a 4 x 5. It's HCB rather than Ansel Adams. Practise aiming at various objects in the room, and quickly recomposing until it is routine to obtain sharp focus. Leica, Ermanox {Dr Erich Salomon} and Contax users in the late 1920s & 30s were successfully getting good results with f1.5 lenses with slow films/sheets. The earlier r/f Leicas had the r/f window about 20 mm left of the v/f; and had to use supplementary viewfinders. Just work at it a bit. John. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbbonthemoon Posted July 18, 2011 Author Share #28 Posted July 18, 2011 You have a digital camera.It is capable of continuous shooting (although limited in the M9's case). Use the machine gun principle....... Just take loads of shots. One is bound to be ok. I'm not aware of any Leica rules that state you only get one shot or that all have to be perfect well, actually, with M9 - thats what I did. Just take many photos and chances that at least few are in focus are high. Until recently... I purchased new Leica MP Reading the discussion, it looks like modern DSLRs with active focus systems, that know to track your selected focus target, have got great advantage over rangefinders. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted July 18, 2011 Share #29 Posted July 18, 2011 I find that the best way to work is to stop trying to focus what is; rather, focus yourself. What do I mean? Pre-set the focus on a distance relatively close to your desired subject, and then move yourself into position where the desired focus-points in the patch overlap. Rocking forward and back usually manages this very very quickly; for further distances, feet tend to work faster than fingers. ... This, imho is one of the best advices... and is a system I often use too... when you make recomposing after focus, typically you have SMALL variations in the distance of on the point you aligned the RF to... with a bit of experience, is rather easy to learn to make small movements that allows you to verfy/adjust the focus not adjusting the lens, but "adjusting yourself"... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 18, 2011 Share #30 Posted July 18, 2011 Reading the discussion, it looks like modern DSLRs with active focus systems, that know to track your selected focus target, have got great advantage over rangefinders. Well, the advantage depends on the (lack:oof) skill of the user. With a bit of practice it is quite possible to get equally good results on a rangefinder. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted July 18, 2011 Share #31 Posted July 18, 2011 Hello Steve, Perhaps the Achillies Heel is to some extent the lack of practice, over-reliance on technology & the therfore lessening of thought about & input into what potential situations might arise & how to deal w/ them. A lot of sucessful hunters do both target practice & dry fire practice when they are not out hunting. Best Regards, Michael Just exactly what has that to do with accurately focusing a wide open fast lens on a subject that isn't planted squarely underneath the rangefinder patch? How do you 'practice' accurate focus by 'dry firing', you have no idea if you were right or wrong? What has 'hunting' got to do with it? As others have said, you missed the point of the thread completely and are just confusing the OP's question with your own agenda. If you focus a fast lens on say a flower, unless you want to have the flower dead centre in the viewfinder you then need to re-compose the picture. But when you re-compose you subtly move the focus point. The OP wants to know how to cope with that situation, not about 'hunting' (unless the flower is about to get up and move itself to a sunnier spot). Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 18, 2011 Share #32 Posted July 18, 2011 I admit practicing used to be difficult on film, but on a digital camera nowadays it is quite possible to pick up the skill quickly. In surprisingly little time it becomes instinctive. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith (M) Posted July 18, 2011 Share #33 Posted July 18, 2011 Wasn't there a thread somewhere on the forum a while back that discussed at great length the mechanics of just this topic, including diagrams, the merits of swiveling from the hips, leaning forward/backwards etc etc etc? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted July 18, 2011 Share #34 Posted July 18, 2011 Wasn't there a thread somewhere on the forum a while back that discussed at great length the mechanics of just this topic, including diagrams, the merits of swiveling from the hips, leaning forward/backwards etc etc etc? something like this or even more? There are at least two threads which covered this and similar issues. Perhaps perusing them might be worth your while: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/customer-forum/88260-focus-techniques.html#post924022 http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/customer-forum/94048-fast-focusing-portraiture.html#post985516 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest #12 Posted July 18, 2011 Share #35 Posted July 18, 2011 ...No camera was designed for focus-and-recompose, but that has been done since the beginning. ... The current Hasselblad ("true-focus") calculates the error and automatically refocuses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest #12 Posted July 18, 2011 Share #36 Posted July 18, 2011 ... Note that when one focusses and recomposes the camera will turn. For geometrical reasons one must bend slightly forward to keep the focussing distance constant. Can we correct this? (from the M9 FAQ) Draw a diagram: if you focus on any point (for example the eye) and rotate the camera for a new composition, side "a" of the triangle will always be longer than side "b." Leaning backwards will keep the original point (eye) in the focus plane; leaning forwards will make the error worse. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/159758-focus-recompose-at-f095-merged/?do=findComment&comment=1738214'>More sharing options...
Lindolfi Posted July 18, 2011 Share #37 Posted July 18, 2011 Yes, #12 is right about the need to move the camera slightly away from the object when recomposing. Did a number of tests and it appears that the problem is less when you hold the camera in your hands, because by turning your head slightly the distance is increased because of the way your upper body and head moves. Just try it with a 50 mm at full opening for objects at about 2 meter: hardly any problem, when moving the object from middle of the frame to the left or right border of the frame. On a tripod the focus error is larger. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 18, 2011 Share #38 Posted July 18, 2011 You're right I do not know how that came in, I have a habit of copy-pasting various posts from the forum, maybe from there. Anyway, changed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
menos I M6 Posted July 19, 2011 Share #39 Posted July 19, 2011 If indeed it was 'designed' for such work, it would imply that it was well suited to it, which it isn't, any more than any other camera which requires one to recompose after focussing, which, as per my link is accompanied by inevitable parallax errors. Please link to any history of rangefinders that shows that shooting a fast lens wide open and then recomposing after focussing was part of what they were designed for. I'd be very interested to read it. It's like stating, that the H shifter of a manual transmission is not designed, to be used with one's hand, as both hands are better suited, to stay on the wheel at all times for safety reasons. Seriously, focus recompose is one basic of many available photography techniques, a photographer has to learn and master. Of course cameras with central focus aid in the viewfinder are designed, to best aid focus recomposing technique. The focus patch is strategically placed in the most ideal possible way, to reduce focussing fault, when recomposing. Good photographers do understand the physics behind and will adjust, be it just for the introduced recomposing fault, their lens' characteristics of uneven field subject or camera movement or the phase of the moon. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Fluff Posted July 19, 2011 Share #40 Posted July 19, 2011 Crikey this forum drives me nuts at times! It's like stating, that the H shifter of a manual transmission is not designed, to be used with one's hand, as both hands are better suited, to stay on the wheel at all times for safety reasons. It really, really isn't. The assertion was that the M series was designed with focus-recompose in mind. Clearly it wasn't in any specific way - nothing about it negates the shift that recomposing from a centre-based composition causes. This is not the same as saying it can't be used in such circumstances effectively, or that one shouldn't learn how to do it better. The focus patch is strategically placed in the most ideal possible way, to reduce focussing fault, when recomposing. Oh come on. If you've only got one RF patch where else would you put it? Top left? If you were talking about an RF camera designed to reduced focussing error when recomposing, you'd build in extra RF patches near the edge of frame, in the way that modern AF cameras have extra focussing sensors around the edges. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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