Why did Leica drop their R-clients so unceremoniously?

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Like the song I quoted above, we can discuss this ad nauseum until we eventually run out of puff or become hoarse.

 

Leica decided to drop the R line. It wasn't profitable for them. They didn't want to invest in R&D to develop a new AF DSLR range at the time (this might change in the future of course).

 

Leica chose instead to try to differentiate themselves in the market with the S2. Whether that was the right or wrong decision only time will tell.

 

But fact is, there's no R system anymore, and there's not likely to be a Leica R 'solution' any time soon other than to use film or a DMR, or another brand of body. If you want an AF DSLR system (of 35mm proportions) then you have to look elsewhere.

 

Get over it, move on. There's really nothing more to say.

[zlatkob]

Fortunately third parties have filled the gap - more or less - for the R system in the form of Canon adapters and Leitax mounts.

 

Fortunately so! There's just a bit of irony in Leica users still criticizing Canon for changing their mount in 1987 now that the relatively big EOS mount provides a means to continue using R lenses (as well as lenses from other systems). As CameraQuest writes, "Canon EOS bodies (film or digital) are more adaptable to more different lenses than any other standard 35mm format SLR / DSLR."

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[adan]

Leica listened to lots of customer feedback on the R system - in the form of shrinking, unprofitable sales.

 

Just as cash is the sincerest form of flattery, sales and profits are the sincerest form of customer feedback. The R system was not getting them.

 

Most of us here agree Leica's corporate communications - and for that matter, the plans that underlie them - have been confused over the past decade as Leica tried to get a handle on the transition of photography to a primarily digital model.

 

There have been a number of statements that later turned out to be "inoperative."

[giordano]

Give me one other camera manufacturer that has full two-way retrocompatability of both lenses and bodies for over 50 years...

 

There's the Hasselblad "V" series: I don't think there are any quibbles about compatibility there (1957-2011).

 

And how about Linhof? When did they last change the Technika lens board or back fittings?

 

Nikon still have a couple of dozen lenses in the catalog that can be used (manual focus, manual exposure, auto aperture) with a 1959 Nikon F. Some of them even couple with the early 1960s metering prisms. OTOH 50-year-old F lenses need minor modification to fit current bodies (without affecting their use on the original bodies).

 

Leica's record of compatibility with the R mount isn't something to boast about, is it?

[jaapv]

Ít sure isnt from 2005 onwards, for 40 years before that it was exemplary.... However killing off the company by continuing the R system would not have helped compatability either.

Edited May 6, 2011 by jaapv

[wildlightphoto]

Leica's record of compatibility with the R mount isn't something to boast about, is it?

 

I'm using a 1970 90mm Summicron-R on the R8 with DMR and a 180mm f/2.8 APO ROM on the SL. Full-aperture metering and auto diaphragm working, no optical compromises. Any of the last R lenses works perfectly on the 1976 R3, most older lenses can be updated with newer metering cams (as my 90 'cron was) or ROM.

Edited May 6, 2011 by wildlightphoto

[adan]

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There's just a bit of irony in Leica users still criticizing Canon for changing their mount in 1987 now that the relatively big EOS mount provides a means to continue using R lenses (as well as lenses from other systems).

 

In reality, it is the short back-focus distance that is the primary reason other system's lenses can be used on Canon EOS. The "bigness" of the mount would be completely irrelevant if there was not space to allow an adapter to fit in between lens and camera and still permit infinity focus.

 

In fact one can fit R lenses on the much SMALLER diameter Leica M lens mount with no performance problems (e.g. vignetting) - so the "relatively big" size of the opening is not very significant.

 

The real irony is that so many lens systems can be adapted to Canon EOS mount - EXCEPT the vast majority of Canon's own FD lenses.

Edited May 6, 2011 by adan

[mjh]

What are Panasonic supposed to be examining with respect to R lenses?

Nothing. Panasonic doesn’t care about R lenses. Incidentally R lenses can be used with MFT cameras (using third-party adapters), but Panasonic isn’t actively involved here.

[pico]

We are talking about consumer goods and manufacturer support here, NOT objects of veneration or adoration. Let us be at least objective and realistic!

 

Leica are a commercial entity and almost certainly expect, as well as benefit from, customer feedback.

 

So, what's your specific feedback - this time without the voluminous innuendo. You can say it in three well composed sentences.

[adan]

A couple of general comments:

 

1) Companies don't have "stakeholders" - they have shareholders. "Stakeholder" is an invented concept amounting to "I should get to say how a company is run even though I don't own any part of the company."

 

2) Never refer to buying camera equipment or anything else as "an investment" unless the purchase offers an expectation of future profit.

 

Professional photographers who will earn their income from the equipment "invest." At the end of the day, year or decade, their net worth will have increased because they bought the camera.

 

So does someone who buys a rare and collectible camera in (rational) expectation that it can be sold for a profit (above and beyond inflation).

 

The vast majority of cameras - even Leicas - lose value as soon as the "no questions asked" return period expires. That is a lousy way to "invest" - but it can be fun anyway.

Edited May 6, 2011 by adan

[pico]

And how about Linhof? When did they last change the Technika lens board or back fittings?

 

1963, when they fixed the back to a standard so that custom ground lens cams were no longer necessary.

[pico]

Nothing. Panasonic doesn’t care about R lenses. Incidentally R lenses can be used with MFT cameras (using third-party adapters), but Panasonic isn’t actively involved here.

 

Panasonic is involved, and with Leica's blessings. They have a Lumix branded adapter for the Leica M and another for the R.

Edited May 6, 2011 by pico

[adan]

it would be rather nice to have some clarity, without doublespeak, on this issue from Leica themselves for once. ... a direct and honest appraisal of the situation.

 

Leica has been talking - if some haven't been listening, that is not Leica's problem.

 

I don't see much doublespeak here, although the "R solution was, is and will be, intentionally vague until they have an actual product to describe (ask Nikon or Canon about their 2014 products and you'll get equal vagueness... ). it is a very direct and blunt appraisal of the situation.

 

"R-System

 

R10 and Alternatives

> There will be no digital SLR aka R10

> But there will be - and we are working on this - a suitable solution how to use R lenses digitally

> It's very important to us, that owners of R lenses can take pictures digitally in the near future

> This solution will have nothing to do to with the S2

> Leica has examined intensively which features and what price tag a R10 had to have

> Price would have been 6000 - 7000 Euro and it would have been far behind the competitors

> This would have been a solution for the existing customer base but not for new customers

> Therefore the R system is discontinued, the existing system runs out

> There is no due date for the new solution

> Indirect notes by Stefan Daniel to 35 mm full format

> Definitely it's not going to be a SLR"

 

-- From the June 2009 meeting between representatives of this forum and Leica

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/customer-forum/89591-summary-q-session-stefan-daniel-during.html

[otto.f]

Interesting to see how a theme/frustration that has been discussed over and over in this forum, generates 52 responses again. And this, where it was already clear in 1970 at least, that Leica has not the reflex-DNA

[Posto 6]

So, what's your specific feedback - this time without the voluminous innuendo. You can say it in three well composed sentences.

I believe I was quite clear in my postings, and do not feel like regurgitating or simplifying them for those who choose to not take them at face value. I would add another point, however:

Leica really need to find a younger and more vibrant customer base in their traditional geographic markets.

[adan]

How young or old or vibrant is Leica's customer base? Do you have actual figures?

 

What are "their traditional geographic markets"? And why would geography matter? If Leica can double their sales appealing to their non-traditional geographic markets, good for them. I'll bet Leica sales in Brazil in 2010 are a much bigger piece of their market than in 2000 (Cheers for Brazil's growing presence in the world!) - is that bad?

Edited May 6, 2011 by adan

[ho_co]

... As CameraQuest writes, "Canon EOS bodies (film or digital) are more adaptable to more different lenses than any other standard 35mm format SLR / DSLR."

 

Hmm. Really? How about Alpa's 35mm bodies? Because the backfocus is so short, it will handle any mechanical SLR lens.

 

AND WHO CARES? No-one is dissing Canon or Nikon or anyone else or gives a darn. "Wenn ich nun 'mal m e i n Faust schreibe . . . "

 

 

 

Well, at least this isn't a bag thread or one about having a dirty sensor.

Edited May 6, 2011 by ho_co

[mjh]

Panasonic is involved, and with Leica's blessings. They have a Lumix branded adapter for the Leica M and another for the R.

Ah yes, I forgot – they also have their own R-to-MFT adapter. Similar adapters are offered by Novoflex and others.

[zlatkob]

AND WHO CARES? No-one is dissing Canon or Nikon or anyone else or gives a darn.

You must have missed post #22, dissing Canon for switching mounts without any retrocompatibility. In a thread about the demise of the R system, the ironies abound.

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[Xmas]

Hi

 

I understand some may be well upset but to name a few...

 

Nikon dropped all rangefinder support in 1962 or there abouts, yes they did mellinium rangefinders but no new system lenses, apart from the camera kit lenses. Cosina did small batches of their normally LTM lenses but in Nikon mount.

 

Zeiss dropped each of the Contax IIa range, the Contarex range, and the Contax G range, donno about their other SLRs...

 

Konica SLR...

 

If Leica did not sell R bodies in the last decades in appreciable numbers, it is not Leica who killed the R but the users, i.e. lack of users...

 

It is our fault not Leicas fault, people have bough Nikon and Canon DSLR instead.

 

Noel